185: Why Schools Crush Creativity (For Teachers and Kids)

Roula (00:00)
record press record

Rosie (00:04)
Roula, you are excited to be here today. Hello.

Roula (00:04)
Let's do this.

I'm... Hello! I couldn't wait to be here today. It's been a tough week and I couldn't wait to have our recording and enjoy some fun time.

Rosie (00:19)
enjoy our time together sometimes I think ⁓ I gotta record episodes but we jump on and you're like

Rosie and Roula! It's just always such a joy. I don't ever feel like, ugh, I gotta talk to Roula again. Ew. You know? You're not like that annoying work colleague.

Roula (00:41)
the annoying work colleague that you have to talk to and then your boss would tell you you have to make it work you have to collaborate you have to have a good communication and deep down inside of you you're like this work colleague I wouldn't want it in my life ever but I have to work with this person

Rosie (00:58)
Okay.

Okay. How do we, I think this should be a question. Okay. Because I've started teaching again.

So listeners, I'm an ex teacher. I guess I'm not ex anymore, but I, I did my teaching degree. I taught for two years, decided it wasn't for me and swore I'd never go back. So the last year I taught was the end of 2016. It's now 2025 and I've just done some relief teaching this week. my God. Shocked to the system.

But I think it relates to this thing about colleagues that you don't really want to work with, but you have to. Because kids come up to you and they're like, so and so was mean to me. They did this. They kicked me. Blah, blah, blah. And sometimes I feel like saying, yeah, well that kid's an asshole. You know, just go hit him back. Like sometimes you just think, yeah, but you gotta go, you know what?

You know, they gotta talk it out and say sorry and we all just gotta get along and be respectful. Is that? Like are we teaching our kids the right thing?

Roula (02:19)
thinking why didn't you ask this kid so what did you do for the other one to kick you where's your responsibility in this

Rosie (02:24)
Yes!

What did you do?

That's actually a very good question, isn't it? There's usually a reason. You know what can work is you just, get both sides of the story. Everyone has to listen to each person and then we go from there. Okay, I'm going to give you an example. Kid today, I'm turning into a teacher already talking about students. Kid today, he was being naughty and kind of doing a bit of a...

Roula (02:33)
But you can't say it.

Rosie (02:54)
handstand on the wall when he was meant to be sitting down and listening. And I was walking over about to tell him off, sit down, when another student came over and kicked the boy who was doing this handstand in the foot. And so the boy who kicked the other boy got in trouble because I saw him kick the other one. And he said to me, yeah, but they're not meant to be doing a handstand. I said, I know, but do you think...

kicking him was the right thing to do because you've hurt him now. And he just stares at me. He wasn't meant to be doing it. I said, well, what else could you have done? And he couldn't think of it. I said, what if you used your words? I said, I was coming over to talk to him to tell him to sit down, but you decided to kick him. Anyway, so I made him apologize. And then the other student got in trouble too for doing his handstand. like,

I don't know, sometimes I just think, sometimes I feel like kicking people too.

Roula (03:59)
think you were very offended that this little boy took over your job. You should have kicked the boy. No, I'm kidding. I don't mean that.

know what I'm thinking, Rosie, is that that boy who wants to do handstand, probably this is his way in listening. We want every child to sit upright and listen, but this doesn't work to every kid.

Rosie (04:12)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Right.

So true.

See, this is something I struggle with too. Right. This is something I struggle with too because I believe what you're saying. I'm an advocate for that. But then I've found myself back in the school system and it's really hard to buck the system and go, well, hey, maybe it's helping that student listen. In this case, I think he was just being a dickhead to be honest, but what do I know?

Roula (04:28)
There must be another way!

Rosie (04:55)
I actually don't know this student very well, he was from a different class. So, yeah, why don't we let kids be themselves? Like, yes, they need to be able to behave in a way that they can learn and others can learn, but that doesn't necessarily mean sitting on the floor, cross-legged, staring at the teacher for six hours a day.

Roula (05:01)
Yeah.

And this reminds you why you didn't like teaching because you have to follow a system and you cannot be creative. You cannot bring your new thoughts. It's not accepted because there's danger in this. All kids have to follow one system, one way of thinking, one material, because if we deviate, we are in danger. And this is what's happening now in our societies.

Rosie (05:21)
or damn straight. ⁓ yeah.

Yeah

Roula (05:45)
Everyone feels that we don't want the system. We want something different. But because we're not trained from a young age to feel free and think freely, we go to the extremes because we start searching what we want. And school systems are painful. I have a friend and I really want to record an episode for my podcast with her. She was living here in the Netherlands and she's American. She moved to America.

Rosie (06:01)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Roula (06:15)
her husband, her husband is Dutch, and they started homeschooling and now with their community they are homeschooling and they have like six students, sixty, sorry, sixty kids and they're all parents and so when I talked to her I told her when I hear homeschooling because it's like outside of my world it feels like it's an Amish community or people in Utah, the Mormons are

Rosie (06:27)
Wow, wow, wow, wow.

Mmm.

Roula (06:43)
homeschooling. It doesn't sound to me something attractive, but then she explained to me what they do and how they teach and what they teach. And I was like, this is a world I misunderstood completely. It's so beautiful. So they do nature, biology and nature. You know, they it's about doing the kids don't have a class for eight hours to sit in. No, they

Rosie (06:49)
Right.

What?

Hmm.

Yeah, learning by doing.

Roula (07:13)
take them outside to move and learn. yeah, so this is the school I think that you are missing. And I hope we have.

Rosie (07:23)
That would be cool. I got

so many things to unpack about my experience this week. I feel like there could be a couple of episodes here. I need some fucking therapy Roula Seriously, you need to be my therapist and listeners, you're just coming along for the ride. Sorry, not sorry.

Roula (07:40)
I like that you're a rebellion, but in a good way. You're not. ⁓ You don't want to destroy the system. You want to improve it. You want to adjust it to where we are today. Yeah. But you find yourself when you're at school, you find yourself behaving like everyone else.

Rosie (07:44)
Mmm.

Right, what a revolution, yeah.

totally. Yeah. Absolutely. So that's a real... like it's confronting. You're like, ⁓ I preach all this stuff and then now I'm in a position where I can start implementing and I'm reverting to the norm. It's hard.

Roula (08:16)
know

how many persons can say in all their school years before university, because when we go to university and we still find inspiring people somehow. But I find it hard to find people telling me through from the primary school, middle school, high school, if they ever had or the percentage of an inspiring teacher or a teacher that

Rosie (08:24)
Mm-mm.

you

Roula (08:44)
made them want to do something. Of course they exist, but they are the minority.

Rosie (08:49)
Yeah this is true. I would love to be that teacher for somebody. ⁓ It's a tough, but it's a tough, it's think it's really tough to do. I I try my best who knows how well I do but hey I think

Roula (09:04)
Yeah.

Rosie (09:06)
I've got to know some of the students seem to have a bit of a rapport. know, there's the certain names you bring up all the time, but I think we had fun. I definitely felt incompetent many times. I also had the thought of why am I doing this? I don't want to do this. I hate this many, many times, but I also had fun. So

Roula (09:10)
Yeah.

⁓ Durin.

How you how you deal with, let's say, the difficult children. Is your style. And this is where you need to work on and figure out how can I make this kid instead of resisting listening, enjoy listening, and you don't need approval from the other teachers to do this, because that will be your rapport, your style.

Rosie (09:35)
Hmm.

Right, right, right, yeah.

Hmm

Roula (09:54)
This is what makes you stand out for the kids.

Rosie (09:54)
Yeah.

It's a good point. And I think that's why I care so much about developing relationships with the kids first. There's this saying in teaching in Australia, I'm sure there's something similar in all countries, don't smile before Easter. So you've got to be really stern. means, this academic year here starts in January, ends in December, and Easter is about a third of the way through the year, or a quarter. No.

Roula (10:15)
have no idea what that is.

Rosie (10:27)
third, about a third of the way through the year. ⁓ Don't smile before Easter. So if you want your class to respect you, you've got to be stern, you've got to be strict, you can't be friendly, there's no, none of that. Don't smile before Easter, otherwise you are doomed. I don't subscribe to that. Yeah, yeah, yuck, exactly. I think it's hard work to, to...

Roula (10:43)
This is leading with fear, not with respect. ⁓

Rosie (10:53)
Yeah, lead with respect and have a good relationship with the kids compared to just being a dictator and yeah, using fear to get them to behave. I don't like that. It works, but wow, that's horrible.

Roula (11:05)
Yeah.

It doesn't work all the time. It works with some kids. And this is why some kids don't do well at school, because they dread. Can you imagine if you dread going and teaching? How many kids dread going to school because they don't like the teacher?

Rosie (11:12)
Hmm.

⁓ that's a good point.

That's such a good point. Yeah. ⁓ that's

Roula (11:28)
Yeah.

Rosie (11:33)
Working with colleagues you don't like, having to put up with kids at school you don't like as a teacher and a student.

Roula (11:42)
And you know, it's you know, Rosie, it's not when it's not about bashing teachers and students. It's it's about the system that even doesn't fit the personality of the teacher. You study teaching, you study something, you want to become a teacher to make a difference. And then you end up in a system and you feel you are as trapped in the system as the kids. But we have to do it because whatever certification we have at the end, we need it. This is the first.

Rosie (11:47)
No.

⁓ yes.

Yes.

Roula (12:11)
hurdle to get into life. And if we don't have this paper or have this education, but it doesn't have to be university, it could be apprenticeship, it could be anything. But this is the paper that make us step a bit further into our dream.

Rosie (12:29)
That's how society

works, right? Qualification, move forward, do this. Which I don't particularly subscribe to that, but yeah. Okay, I think I've had enough. Yeah, I've had enough of talking about school and teachery.

Roula (12:34)
Yeah.

Shall we wrap it up, Rosie? Yeah. Yes, but it's good. It's good. Some people are listening.

are teachers, are students and they're hating us now. Bye.

Rosie (12:52)
Parents too. See ya!