186: Stop Telling Kids They’re Amazing (When They’re Not) - The Problem With Praise and How We're Getting It Wrong

Rosie (00:00)
I've been feeling a little bit sensitive this week and something's on my mind. You're either gonna slap some sense in me and go stop being such a delicate flower or maybe such a baby. Maybe you'll say something different.

Roula (00:14)
You're such a baby.

Rosie (00:32)
Something I hear a lot is that we praise kids too much. You know, we're just too nice, just giving out awards and saying, well done this, well done that, da da. And the reason I say that is this week I have had a lot of self doubt around my capabilities as a teacher. A lot of self doubt to the point of I'm borderline in tears. And then this afternoon,

The assistant principal just showered me with praise and I could not stop smiling. So earlier in the day, I was almost in tears when teaching, just thinking, wow, I'm incompetent. And then a few hours later, talking to the assistant principal, who's just saying, don't go anywhere, you're amazing. Like, my God, so happy with how you're doing. And I felt a million bucks, but what do you think about praise and positive feedback?

Do we do it too much? Do we not do it enough? Is it important?

Roula (01:34)
Yes, look, random praise, find that we need to stop doing it. It must be backed up with a fact.

Rosie (01:40)
What?

Right, right.

Roula (01:47)
If we want to praise children or grown-up anyone, there must be a factual thing that happened that deserves this praise. Because for children, when we praise them for no facts, they will think they're very good at something while they're not.

Rosie (01:56)
Yes.

When

they're sheet.

Roula (02:07)
And this will result in lacking that they work harder, that they want to learn because they think, I'm too good. You know, my parents praise me all the time. I'm so good. And I pay attention also not to do this with my my son. And maybe now if I think of my daughters, et cetera. ⁓ I would love if the listener give also their opinion on this topic, because I feel.

Rosie (02:13)
Mmm.

Roula (02:34)
Praising has to have a reason a good reason and if I'm praising I need to praise a specific thing I'm not gonna say ⁓ you're so good. No, you're so good at putting your plate after dinner in the dishwasher

Rosie (02:46)
does that mean?

Right. Right. Yeah, it needs to be specific. ⁓ jinx. Yes. I agree.

Roula (02:52)
So I'm being specific. Yes. So this

principle, whomever came and praised you, you could challenge them. You can ask them, so what's the one thing that I did? ⁓

Rosie (03:06)
She did. She said she was talking about how

I was engaging the kids and started listing things. And I went, ⁓ okay, maybe she is being genuine. Because when someone isn't specific, I question whether they're being genuine or they're just trying to cheer me You know?

Roula (03:22)
But it's good that you

mentioned this because I didn't think I didn't know there was something specific.

Rosie (03:27)
Yes, she did back it up.

Who knows if she was blowing smoke up my ass? I don't know. I like to think she was being genuine. I hope so. ⁓

Roula (03:36)
But

someone even is fish. What did you say? Blow smoke up my ass? Even if she's blowing smoke up your ass, she's trying to give you some encouragement. And yeah, we do this with our kids when they're playing football at the field and it's being difficult and we say, you're doing so good. Yes, go for it. But deep down inside, they have zero talent.

Rosie (03:41)
Yeah, I don't know where that comes from.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, shit.

You could compliment them on how much effort they're putting into it. Don't lie. It needs to be genuine. Well, is praise important? Do we do it enough? Do we need to do it more? I think what you're saying is we need to do it differently. It needs to be specific. Do you think?

Roula (04:07)
Yeah, so it is.

True. What was your question again?

Rosie (04:25)
like that specific genuine praise. Is that done enough?

Roula (04:31)
⁓ I don't know.

Rosie (04:33)
When's

the last time you were reposed?

Roula (04:39)
Maybe, I don't know. I feel like my husband praised me a couple of days ago and he was specific. I don't remember why, but I liked it because he was specific. Because when he praised me without being specific, I continue doing my thing. I don't give it even attention.

Rosie (04:47)
Mm.

Yeah.

You

Right, we'll just dismiss it. Yeah. Ooh.

Roula (04:59)
yeah but when he's specific yeah

i stop and i say thank you that you noticed this yeah so praise it's like like appreciation like giving motivation it's it has to have a real backup to it with children is difficult because to our how i thought when i was first a mother with the little knowledge that i had i thought

Rosie (05:06)
Yeah, it's very meaningful.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Roula (05:27)
I should praise them for everything so they feel self-confident. And I think I created self-doubt in them because maybe at a certain point they realized, ⁓ I'm not that good, as my mom told me.

Rosie (05:34)
⁓ fuck.

Right,

because I'm not sure we do a good job at building resilience in our young people. We're big on pointing out all the good things, or sometimes for some children it's the bad things always pointed out. But when things go wrong, we don't teach kids how to handle that. And then as adults, we have trouble. I mean, I do. I'm still learning how to...

Roula (06:06)
We're stuck in our emotions.

You know what I don't like, Rosie? I really don't like it. I just can't stand it. When there's for, and this is about children, when there's a competition and at the end they give a medal to everybody.

Rosie (06:18)
Okay.

Oh yeah, I know where this is going.

is it. They don't want the kids to get upset. Right, right. I used to get pissed off about this when I was a student because I would come home to mum and dad and rant. I'm like the top 5%. I'm really good, always doing the right thing. And all these other kids are getting the awards. Like why are they getting it? It's really frustrating. But the reasoning is what we want to acknowledge.

Roula (06:23)
while there are one or two who stand out.

Rosie (06:48)
kids and we don't want kids getting upset blah blah blah but then for example when they lose in a game there's a tantrum but you know what there are winners and losers in life doesn't mean you're a good or a bad person so we need to teach these skills like for me

Roula (07:04)
Yeah.

Rosie (07:06)
I don't know if I was taught that well, it's so hard when I'm not good at something. ⁓ that hits me hard. It's really hard, but it's like, well, we can't be good at everything. You shit at sport, that's okay.

Roula (07:22)
if this is nature or nurture.

Rosie (07:24)
Ooh, Bop being resilient. ⁓

Roula (07:27)
Yeah, no, but not not

accepting defeat or losing at something. But I want to just to go back to winning and losing and rewarding everyone. It's OK to reward everyone for their effort, but there must be an effort put from the grown up, the teacher, the sports. I don't know somewhere to give the winner the obviously a winner and little extra thing.

Rosie (07:38)
Mm-mm.

Roula (07:53)
It could be an extra flower. It could be a different kind of medal. And here in the Netherlands, I feel that they are so careful in keeping all children emotionally in control and satisfied so that they don't feel lesser. And it pisses me off. And I'm saying my kids to struggle with losing and winning. I'm not saying.

Rosie (07:58)
See,

It pisses me off too, but yeah. ⁓

yeah. Do you struggle with winning and losing?

Roula (08:20)
I'm not going through this all the time.

I've never been a bad loser. I've never been a bad loser. I'm trying to think, because you really, I have never really stopped and thought about this. What I, what I remember is that, okay, I have, because I haven't, when I was growing up, I didn't do sports, et cetera. So I wasn't in a competitive world, but I was later on, I was in competitive world because I was working, paying.

Rosie (08:26)
⁓ probably because you always win.

Roula (08:51)
my school, my car, my life, etc. while other people around me, their parents were providing everything for them and they felt like winners. But I did not see myself as a loser.

Rosie (08:58)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Roula (09:06)
because I felt proud that I'm doing all of this myself.

Rosie (09:11)
Yes, maybe we

say it, it's not really about winners or losers. It's so interesting, so I'm feeling conflicted because on the one hand I agree that our top achievers and the ones doing, you know, that bit above everyone else should be recognised that bit more. But I'm thinking to something I said just today to the kids when we're doing PE, we were saying, are you gonna have a tantrum if you get out in the game or if you lose? No.

and asking all the questions and we say because it's not about winning, it's about having fun. That is what I said.

Was I wrong? a game and yeah.

Roula (09:52)
Yeah,

this is such a good point. We use it here a lot in the culture also. It's about having fun. Well, what I say to my son, it's about having fun. But if you're not going to take it seriously in a certain way, then you are also wasting your time. You should enjoy what you're doing, but losing every time, it means you're not putting enough effort in learning the game, whatever.

Rosie (09:59)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

you

Roula (10:21)
No one wants to lose every time. Excuse me.

Rosie (10:21)
Ooh.

That's true, it doesn't feel nice.

then we can't build this unrealistic expectation that we can be good at everything. That's just ridiculous.

Roula (10:36)
You don't have to be good at everything. We have to be good. We have to be better than what we were yesterday. So if yesterday they didn't reach the, yeah, and it's hard to teach children this because in their nature, when they're little, they have their tantrum, they want to win and there are very, there's a lot of competitive spirits in there. And sometimes it's okay. We should let them.

Rosie (10:46)
Right, we're our own competition.

yeah.

Roula (11:02)
be in this tantrum. Why not? Why not?

Rosie (11:05)
Right!

Wow! Let them be in the tantrum. Yeah. Why do we cut it short?

Roula (11:14)
And when they're gone from the tantrum, we can ask them, how can you, what can you do different next time? Maybe a better night's sleep, maybe train more, maybe not hurry.

Rosie (11:21)
Right.

Yeah. I don't know what the answer is, but we need... See that maybe that's it. Why do we teach kids that things are so black and white? It's not always about winning and losing, but sometimes it is.

Roula (11:26)
Yeah.

Yeah. And let them be in their tantrum. Let them be upset because probably that's the only way they will improve themselves next time. we don't, we don't have to make them. Rosie, we don't have to make them feel comfortable every time because life is not comfortable. And it's hard for us. We don't know how to deal with it when they're uncomfortable as a parent, as a teacher, anyone who's looking after children.

Rosie (11:49)
⁓ yeah, the challenge is sometimes it's...

Yes, yeah.

Yeah,

being able to sit in the discomfort is a really beneficial life skill, I think. But then talking about tantrums, it's hard to just let them go through it. Sometimes it's safety for them, safety of others, or sometimes you just got somewhere you gotta go. Sometimes you got a class you need to teach. It's not convenient to let this child have a tantrum. So it's not easy.

Roula (12:30)
See, then maybe there must be some space in the school next to the classroom or in the classroom, like a nice corner where we can say, calm down, this is your space. Come back when you feel like it. I had something when I when we were looking after my nephews, the little ones, also they're seven and five or seven and six years old. And when they get angry, they left the house. So we lost them and we went.

Rosie (12:37)
Go heavy tantrum.

Roula (12:59)
after them bringing them back they opened the door and they left out i was very angry very angry but then i was i told them okay you are allowed to feel angry but you're not allowed to leave the house you can go to the attic and sit there until you calm down you can't leave the house because it was terrifying the children when they have tantrum they're just like you never know what they're gonna do

Rosie (13:05)
Right.

Mmm. Mmm.

Yeah, setting the boundaries. Yeah,

yeah, I had a bit of a tantrum yesterday actually. That's a whole other story though. Because adults have tantrums too.

Roula (13:34)
Okay, shall we finish this one and get into the Tentrum 1 next episode? If you want. All right. This was a heavy episode. I do think parents relate to it. You know, we're not professionals or psychologists. We're just people living with other people and wanted... Okay.

Rosie (13:39)
⁓ boy, yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. All right.

Speak for yourself. No, I'm a professional. yep. What I say is the

gospel. All right? Yep. Bye everybody.