198: Why We Lie To Our Boss About Being Sick, And What It Says About Work Culture

Rosie (00:00)
looking very beautiful today. Very, very classic, you

Roula (00:02)
Thank you.

Yeah.

If you say so.

Rosie (00:07)
If I say

Roula (00:22)
How are you doing?

Rosie (00:24)
It's a bit hot today.

Roula (00:25)
You were saying it's 42 degrees?

Rosie (00:28)
Mmm. But I'm very relaxed. Because I took yesterday off work and today. So I'm just chill.

Roula (00:38)
Yes, I was thinking about you when you said you're taking off work. I to take off work when you just started, it's not a good sign. So maybe it's really you should not do this for your own mental health.

Rosie (00:49)
No, it's not, and-

I don't want to.

Yeah, agreed. This could turn into a therapy session. We shouldn't go there. But yes, it's been an eye-opener, I think. And actually, it leads me to my question.

Roula (01:02)
No we're not.

Rosie (01:12)
Is it acceptable to take time off work when you're not actually sick?

Roula (01:18)
and not on vacation.

There are so many reasons to take time off work. It could be to go to the doctor. It could be to... Yes, yes.

Rosie (01:28)
Should I give some more context? Okay.

So my situation. I was feeling a little bit un-

Roula (01:34)
But I thought you said

you don't want to talk about this anymore. I should tell you. Okay. No, no, about school.

Rosie (01:38)
No, we're just not, we're not doing therapy, okay? So we're not gonna deep dive too much.

Well, yes, but it's not specifically about school. Okay. But you're right. We are not doing a whole week of school episodes. ⁓ But a little bit about school, because I'm working in a school. I've been working every day and it's been really tough. One, because I haven't been working in a traditional job full time in a long time.

Roula (01:46)
Okay.

Rosie (02:07)
And two, I'm not enjoying the work. So I was feeling a bit under the weather, but usually I'd just work through that. But I called in sick and I took two days off. And I don't feel guilty about it. But I didn't say I need some mental health days or I'm feeling overwhelmed, I need some time off. I said I was sick. It was partially true.

I was a little bit sick, but not sick enough to stay home. So is that acceptable? Because I think this is something a lot of people do.

Roula (02:47)
surely also did it yeah of course i did

Rosie (02:50)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Roula (02:55)
You know, ⁓ as you said first, when you call in sick in the Netherlands, they must not know why it's private information. So you can say, I'm sick. You don't have to say what's wrong with you. There is a debate about it that some people call in sick while they're not sick. I do think, Rosie, in the context you're giving me, because there are other contexts in the beginning I started, we're not going in there.

Rosie (03:02)
Yeah.

Okay, that's good.

Mm-hmm.

Like me.

right.

Roula (03:25)
and the context you are giving me. When we call in sick and we're not really sick, we do feel guilty that we called in sick. But this means there is something essentially wrong about how we're feeling. Otherwise, we wouldn't call in sick.

Rosie (03:34)
Right.

Sure.

Roula (03:43)
And mostly it has something with our mental health. You can have a bad night's sleep and call in sick, but this also means you're not in the head space to be able to go to work.

Rosie (03:48)
totally.

So should we be able to say to our boss, look, I had a really bad night's sleep. It's just not going to be a productive day. need to take the day off. Should that be normalized?

Roula (04:08)
I don't think so.

This is not regulated. Some things are better left within the regulations without telling the truth.

Rosie (04:11)
Okay.

Whoa. Wow. What about mental health days?

Roula (04:24)
Well, unless they are officially known by HR, how about period day?

Rosie (04:33)
⁓ But why don't we feel comfortable to say that? Why don't we feel comfortable to say that?

Roula (04:35)
There are things.

because you're judged. And your colleague will think, ⁓ okay, so I'm also not feeling well. I could have also stayed home.

Rosie (04:50)
Isn't this interesting? So do you think it can't change because we're all just too judgmental and close-minded? Wow.

Roula (04:55)
Yeah, of course it can change. And I'm not sure it should

change.

Rosie (05:01)
You're encouraging secrecy. I am actually shocked. I'm shocked. I am.

Roula (05:07)
I know you're shocked. Yes.

Well, I don't know if I'm encouraging secrecy. But sometimes you have to protect yourself from the system. And companies have their system. Is it accommodating everyone? No. Should it accommodate everyone? It's not possible. I mean, let's be realistic.

Rosie (05:17)
Yeah.

Hmm. I think I would like it to change a little bit though. I don't want to have to give every little detail on why I'm taking time off, but why do I feel like I have to lie? I think that should change.

Roula (05:41)
because there are responsibilities waiting

for you? You're not lying because they're making you lie. You're lying because you feel you have responsibility. You should be somewhere, but your body and mind, it's telling you you cannot do it today.

Rosie (06:00)
I think we should be able to talk about it more and I think taking more time off work isn't a bad thing. How much annual leave is normal in the Netherlands?

Roula (06:12)
Yeah, that's a good question. I worked in places where we had 35 days annual leave. By, let's say, regulated by the government to protect the employees, you have 20 days off per year. Many people. It's so unfair to bring me back to what you're saying. When my children were little, I took almost 15 days just because they are sick.

Rosie (06:18)
Okay.

Mmm.

Wow. That's it. ⁓

Mm.

Roula (06:40)
because they have school appointments, where children were little, all my vacation days went on care days.

Rosie (06:41)
Right.

Yeah... Doesn't seem fair.

Roula (06:51)
And then my latest job

that I worked a few years ago, they had care days, family care days, where you get paid 75 % of your salary because you can't work the whole day, but they don't want you to use your days off, vacation days, because you have to recalibrate, recharge, they're important. But also they don't want to be unfair for other people who don't have kids.

Rosie (07:00)
That's cool.

Roula (07:21)
and don't take days off for care. But you know, at a certain point you have to care for your parents, you have to care for a spouse. It's not only for children. know, children when they were little, when we get older we need care days for our parents. And I think this change also need to happen. I'm not, I don't have an answer about calling in sick when you're not really sick, but there are a few things that can be changed so we can care for others and save the days for our rest without using them.

Rosie (07:43)
you

Yeah, I think we need to, I think there needs to be change. There needs to be change in this space. We need to normalise the fact that we are human, we need days off, and you know what? Work doesn't come first. There should not be guilt if you need to take a day off. And in fact...

I have issue with having to ask permission for time off. I'm entitled to that.

Roula (08:19)
I see it as a permission. I see it considering, the department need me? Is there enough people? Can the job be done later? So it's not a permission. It's like working as a team or making sure the job is done because at the end of the day, you're hired to do a job. You're not hired to...

Rosie (08:41)
I actually can't believe

what is coming out of your mouth. Yes! See, okay. Yes. Yes.

Roula (08:45)
Yes, but also this is my choice why I don't want to work at corporations anymore if I can. Because this

is the system. I understand the system. I know it's there for a reason. The change is not... Look, the people managing the department atmosphere and spirit, this need to change. People have to make a change in the culture.

Rosie (09:10)
Yes.

Roula (09:13)
because the systems are not going to change. And as long as the cultures are not changing, ⁓ I don't want to work for corporations anymore. I mean, maybe I'm in a lucky position that I can. I say I can and I don't want to. Not everyone. I couldn't in the past years. I had to work my ass off because I needed the job. I needed the money. I didn't know I would be in it at a moment where I say,

Rosie (09:14)
Yes.

Roula (09:43)
Okay, I want to start something for myself. I don't want to work for someone else. So I want to make this clear. Not everyone can make. I wasn't in that position. Was I happy working? No. The culture's shit everywhere. No one cares about the employee. And this is something I really like to, there are a few companies that really care about the employees, but at the end of the day, when you have a better job, you would leave. When they need to reorganize, they will sack you.

So it's, the commitment is really contractual, that's all.

Rosie (10:13)
Yeah.

it is, it's very cold. I, you kind of like on your soapbox a bit about this. It's really interesting. Because you've been in the system for a long time. You know how it works. You've had to play by the rules. And I think at the beginning of our conversation, it came across a bit as you defending the system, which I think maybe a little bit you were, but also what you said just before about it's the culture that needs to change. Totally agree. The culture's fucked. And I think there is positive change happening, but not enough.

There is still this old mindset that work comes first. I mean, even if you were saying it a little bit, if there's a project that needs to be done, you you've got to be there, but at what cost? At what cost?

Roula (11:01)
That's a difficult one because you're not... Most of people work for their colleagues. And if you really ask people around you, once the nice colleagues leave the job, mental health comes down, people start thinking about leaving. We don't work for the companies. We work for the people that are with us in it. And we don't want to let them down.

Rosie (11:19)
Yeah. Yeah.

True? Yeah.

Roula (11:30)
We work on a team or we have a project that requires attention, requires time, and we feel responsible for the people. We don't feel responsible as much for the management. We are being judged and we are being evaluated, whatever, by the management.

Rosie (11:46)
yeah. Yeah. And sometimes

it could be you care about your colleagues, but other times you might be scared of them and you fear them and it's like, I have to deliver this. For me, my... yeah. For me, I think at the end of the day, I just hate the system and I have such huge issue with it. I don't have an answer, but I just really don't like it. And I did feel a little bit guilty for taking this time off.

Roula (11:59)
There's a big competition too, yes, I agree.

Rosie (12:15)
but that guilt didn't last long. I just, it...

Roula (12:17)
But that's also

a sign when we take time off because we don't like the job, it's a sign off to quit, find something else, etc. If we take time off because we don't like the job, but we don't have the possibilities, opportunities and the right time to search for something else, then we have to fill our cup with other stuff to make us bear the burden of this fucking job. You know? ⁓

Rosie (12:26)
Mm-hmm.

Right, needs to be tolerable. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Roula (12:47)
We are burning. I got burned by my jobs. got them. Believe me, when I worked my very first job, I was 18 years old. I worked at the law firm for eight years. I was paralegal. And when I asked for a salary raise after six years or something, the boss raised my salary every month for $100.

Rosie (13:16)
Mm.

Roula (13:17)
And by the end of eight months, because I wanted $800 raise, by the end of the eight months, I resigned because I had to leave and travel to the Netherlands.

Rosie (13:21)
Yeah.

Roula (13:28)
I was 18 years old, well, by the time I was 24, 25, but I didn't have the knowledge to stand up for myself. So I started on the wrong foot at work, and many people start on the wrong foot, and they have, they need time to realize, I should choose myself first.

Rosie (13:45)
you

Yeah, we're just told that's the way it is. You're to be treated like shit at the beginning and you're going to get the shit salary and you just got to do your time. got to do your time. It's gross. In fact, I don't even want to talk about it anymore. It's ick. But you know what I've realized? There's a reason I left teaching. I thought maybe I could enjoy it in a different context. I'm not. I don't even think I'm that great at it. And what I've decided, I'm going to continue this term because I do need the money. But instead of working every day, I'm going to cut it back to three or four days a week.

That's my compromise. That's how I'm going to try and bear or tolerate this. And then I need another plan. ⁓

Roula (14:23)
Yes.

And Rosie, I'm going

to say something you will not like at all. I don't want my children to be taught by someone who doesn't like teaching.

Rosie (14:35)
totally.

Yeah, I'm not offended by that at all. No. Agreed. Teachers should want to be there and so many don't want to be there. They are over it. ⁓ Huge problem with the system. Totally agree. I don't have issue with what you said at all. I'm behind you a hundred percent. Let us know though, everybody. Have you ever called in sick when you're not sick? Do you think that needs to change? Do you think like Rula said, no, that's just, that's

Roula (14:38)
It's not fair.

I'm glad.

Rosie (15:03)
It is what it is and sometimes we need to just keep these things to ourselves. Let us know your thoughts.

Roula (15:08)
Thank you, Rosie, for this topic. Bye.