46: Why Being Stubborn Isn't a Bad Thing

Rosie (00:00)
Look at you in your active wear. Woohoo! Look at you!

Roula (00:21)
so rosy

Rosie (00:21)
I'm always so nervous.

Roula (00:23)
have, in the beginning when we started like getting to know each other and having a call, etc, etc, it appeared and you, first dates, first holistic dates, it appeared and you confirmed it to me that you are a stubborn person.

Rosie (00:26)
Yeah.

First dates.

Yay!

Roula (00:44)
Ha!

Rosie (00:46)
I'm not. Please continue.

Roula (00:52)
will never forget that you are a stubborn person and how does stubbornness look like to you?

Rosie (01:02)
Hmm. I'm stubborn. I feel like if I push back against that, I'm just proving that I am stubborn. I don't think you're wrong though.

Roula (01:11)
No, don't be a people

pleaser. Be yourself.

Rosie (01:16)
I think as a fine line between.

being assertive or standing up for what you believe in, believing in yourself and stubbornness.

I think stubbornness is often conveyed in a negative sense. And I think when it's not used well, it's when you are so stubborn that you are not willing to even listen to the other person's point of view. You're just like, no, my mind is made. I don't care what evidence you bring to me. I don't care what you say, what proof you bring. I'm right. You're wrong. I'm old. You're young. Except you're old. I'm young, but I'm right. You're wrong.

Roula (01:55)
But stubbornness also appear in your day-to-day life and how you do things and how you don't like to... I don't know, like you put first cereals and then milk and you're too stubborn to accept maybe that first milk and then cereals. I don't know, just saying something. Which one? First milk and then... I do and my son stop eating.

Rosie (02:11)
does that? Who does that? Milk then cereal.

splash up when you put the... I guess I don't eat cereal much. Why do you do it in that order?

Roula (02:22)
Never!

Because I've never had cereal growing up ever and my daughter's never had cereals. So I not... Yeah, like I put a little bit of milk, a little bit of cereals.

Rosie (02:33)
So you just did what made sense to you, yeah.

Okay, it works. See, I think you're confusing stubbornness with something else. I can be stubborn, but I think, I don't know how to describe it. I think I'm someone who is very, fierce isn't the word, I'm determined. And if you are going to change my mind, I'm not taking something at face value. So if you say, no, Rosie, this is the way to do it.

No, Rosie, we should use bold colors on the website. I am not going to agree until I actually agree. Excuse me. have agreed. Well, exactly. So I needed to see, I need to see it for myself. I trust you. I love you. You're awesome. But in my head, the website with a plain background, not so bold was the way to go. And I was resistant, wasn't I? But I did it. I was open-minded enough. I was a bit.

Roula (03:15)
And you have not until we went through it.

Yes.

Rosie (03:37)
did

it for graduatingly, I must say, but I did it. And then I went, actually, Roula that actually looks really good. So there was stubbornness, but I think when you can be open-minded enough to explore the alternatives, that's important. And you need someone who can match your energy. You didn't mind pushing back against me being, no, I don't like that idea.

Roula (03:56)
Hmm

Rosie (04:08)
You're just like, no, try it. Let's, let's do this. And so was like, okay, let's do this. But if you were someone who was quiet and would have just gone, whatever. Rosie's so stubborn. Like, wouldn't even.

Roula (04:17)
What if

I try to convince you that it's better? What I try to tell you is we can try and there is nothing, we can always change it. It's just a trying.

Rosie (04:24)
Yeah. Right. It was just like, Hey, let's try. So you

weren't going, no, my way's right. You knew it would look good, but you knew how to like navigate it with me. So I don't think stubbornness has to be a bad thing, but it is perceived as a very negative thing. And I think that's when it's taken to an extreme. You are just not willing to listen or entertain anyone else's ideas. I actually think it's really exciting when somebody changes your mind.

It's like, my God, I never would have thought that. Like on the podcast, on my podcast, when I'm interviewing people and they say something or articulate it in a way I've never thought of, I go.

I'll repeat it or I'll get them to say it again. It's just like, oh my God, that was so profound. And even it's a bit of a different example, but even with our website, I was like, huh, that's actually really good. And would you agree? I actually admitted that to you, right? I didn't just keep it quiet and wasn't salty about it.

Roula (05:27)
You know, for me, a stubborn person is someone who walks away, not open for conversation or another opinion. Well, this is how you represented yourself to me in the beginning. That, yes, that you're a stubborn person. Yeah. And there are actually two type of people, two type of people that I can't have in my life.

Rosie (05:34)
and you called me stubborn.

Tell me more!

Roula (05:54)
stubborn people who are not open for other opinions and people who that this is different topic when they wake up in the morning they need an hour to wake up because i wake up with so much energy

Rosie (06:05)
Well that's me, I'm sorry.

You definitely did today, eating your satsuma and chewing on grass or whatever you were chewing on.

Roula (06:13)
So you

are in these both categories. You need time to wake up and you're stubborn, but you're surprising me. And this also gives me the, the, I mean, the moral of this episode, because I don't know if there always have to be a moral. no. Okay. I'm not wrapping up.

Rosie (06:26)
We're not finishing yet. I feel like you're wrapping up. No, no, No. If

it goes over, it goes over. You described stubbornness in quite a negative way. And you said I came across as stubborn. What are you chewing on?

Roula (06:37)
Yeah.

This plastic thing. A plastic.

Rosie (06:41)
it's plastic. It looks like plastic

parsley or something. Okay. You said I was stubborn, which is a negative thing. I would love to know what it was about how I was behaving or communicating that made you think that. Because if I thought someone was stubborn, I'd probably be reluctant to become friends with them, right? But somehow, yeah, yeah, somehow we're friends.

Roula (06:48)
Mm.

That's right, yo.

I don't think I have noticed that you're stubborn. I heard it from you. You were saying that you are stubborn. And this is very long time ago. I don't remember the context of the conversation, but this stuck with me because I felt like I still have yet to discover your stubbornness.

Rosie (07:23)
Yeah, I don't

so, okay, okay. So you're not saying I came across as stubborn. I identified myself as stubborn. That is fascinating. Wow.

Roula (07:37)
No. Yes, yes.

Yes.

And then I think the only time that I had the chance to experience your stubbornness is when we started working on this podcast. But it wasn't impressive. were, no, you weren't a stubborn person in a way that I don't want to talk to you.

Rosie (07:50)
you

It wasn't impressive.

It was okay.

Right. Yeah. Cause I think when like our podcast is really important to me and when something's important to me, I'm going to like fight or not fight. I'm going to be fierce and really like put my point forward. Cause it matters to me and it can come across as pushy. What I love about you is you'll push back. You won't pussy foot around it. You just go, Rosie, no, this. There's no, no,

Some people just cannot get to the point. It's like what we were saying in an earlier episode about being direct. Get to the fricking point and be clear. I feel like you're good at being clear. I have my moments. I think sometimes I'm good at being clear. Other times I'm not even clear in my own head. So I don't know how I communicate it

Roula (08:47)
Mm.

I think with the podcast, I can be clearer than other aspects in my life.

Rosie (08:53)
Yeah.

Do you think I'm good at being clear? This is fascinating. I'm learning so much about myself.

Roula (09:00)
Yes, yes, we're on a journey with this podcast because we push each other to do better for the results we want. And it's good to be stubborn. It's good to hang on to your ideas. Otherwise you will lose yourself for what others continuously asking you to do.

Rosie (09:06)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mmm.

Roula (09:19)
So stubbornness

is not a bad thing, it's a really good thing. The bad thing is when stubbornness stands in the way of growing or listening or, you know, like seeing halfway, meeting each other halfway. This is when stubbornness is shit and a lot of people are stuck in stubbornness like this. I think I would notice this much more when I was younger, but

Rosie (09:27)
Yes.

Yeah.

Mm.

Roula (09:42)
At the moment, I'm surrounded by people who are open-minded and seek change and personal development. I'm not surrounded anymore by the one stubborn. Also, I don't know how relevant this is. Since I'm not working in an office,

Rosie (09:47)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

Roula (10:04)
I'm also less in contact with different kind of people and thinking.

Rosie (10:11)
Yeah. What? You miss that? right. So the different points of view and those things that yeah. You know what? I want a different word for stubborn because I think yes, it is a positive thing, but I have associated it with so much negativity, which is fascinating because apparently I told you that I'm a very stubborn person, which I do kind of identify with, but what other word could we use?

Roula (10:13)
And I miss that. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Hmm.

Rosie (10:40)
I think I need time to go away and think about this, but does a word come to mind?

Roula (10:46)
No, no, but it should not be an insult because sometimes in a heated moment we say, you're so stubborn

we are not able to convince that person of our opinion. So who's really stubborn?

Rosie (10:55)
Right?

my god, that's so true. Yeah, who was it really? You're both as stubborn as each other really, when you're in that kind of situation.

This has been so interesting.

Roula (11:08)
Yeah, because if we change it to from

stubborn to knowing what we want, yeah, that doesn't leave a door open for openness.

Rosie (11:19)
Right. And it's not just open-mindedness. It's this combination of, would you call it a hot-blooded woman? We had a recent episode about that. We're being a hot-blooded person, hot-blooded, but also open-minded. It's like this balance of fire and what's something that's calmer? I don't know. It's just this fiery awesomeness.

Roula (11:29)
A hot-blooded person.

Rosie (11:46)
Awesomeness. Maybe that's what I should identify with. I'm awesome.

Roula (11:47)
Yeah, maybe some

listeners can help us find a softer way. Yeah, create a new world.

Rosie (11:52)
Let's create a new word. I don't want a

soft word. Ew.

Roula (11:59)
okay. No, no, I get you. I get you. We want we don't want soft words and we don't want it to be an insult. Unless the person is really stubborn, but yeah.

Rosie (12:01)
Needs not to... Right. Right.

We're both pretty stubborn, I think, actually. Yeah, yeah,

we're strong-willed and I love it.

Roula (12:17)
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. You know what, maybe it's good to do a small research and ask chat GPT what other word but not for now, not for now. We can add it later. Yeah. I love chat GPT is my friend. Even though people think chat GPT is doing the job, but it's not because it's so stupid and needs corrections.

Rosie (12:18)
You're still thinking about that, you're like...

chat GPT. All right. Yeah! It's your bestie.

Yeah,

this is true. It's smart, but it's also stupid. Kind of like humans really. I guess it is based off us. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember when encyclopedias were on CD-ROMs? Like they went from being in the books to on a CD-ROM. And it was like, okay. Well that happened when I was at school and it was just mind blowing. You didn't have to get the books out, you know, A to B, B to C or whatever.

Roula (12:47)
It's a quick encyclopedia, that's it.

No, I don't remember that.

Rosie (13:10)
You just put the CD-ROM in and you could search. It's like Google on a CD. Anyway, that was great. That sounded really sarcastic. It actually was great. That was a good conversation.

Roula (13:24)
Okay,

okay. I hope we can find a word to replace stubborn into something nicer and reflecting the true meaning. Please let us know. Thank you so much for listening.

Bye.

Rosie (13:39)
You