47: Cultural Pride or Assimilation Disaster?

Rosie: [00:00:00] Okay, so rule. I'm very excited because we got our very first question from a listener. 

Roula: So excited. 

Rosie: I'm so excited. So everybody, you need to get onto it and go to our website, but we have a question from Codex. I'm gonna play it. So let's hear it.

Roula: Welcome to the Rosie and Rola show. Marhaba. Good day.

Hey ladies, great podcast. Enjoyed every episode thus far, but I got a question for you both. What is the traditional practice from your culture that you think everyone should experience at least once and why? Cheers, guys. Oh, 

Roula: what a nice [00:01:00] question. I love it. Yeah. 

Rosie: Yeah. This is, this is deep. Like this is, this is a very, um, I don't know, borderline philosophical really, and it's made me ask myself some questions because.

Rosie: I was like, I don't even know what my culture is. I don't feel like I have a culture. Um, but before we go into that ruler, what was your gut reaction when you heard this question? I, 

Roula: I had to think which culture? The Lebanese culture or the Dutch culture. 

Mm-hmm. 

Roula: And I think that both, both have something nice to.

Roula: Invite people into. 

Rosie: Mm-hmm. 

Roula: Um, so are you asking me to answer first? Yeah, you, you answer first need. Hard to 

Rosie: think. I need. Hard to think. Well my, I know my answer's not gonna be as good, so [00:02:00] I wanna hear yours and I wanna hear it for both cultures. If we've got time, I'm being bossy, 

Roula: I can answer. The first one I can do is the Lebanese one, because this is something I've always remember.

Roula: Never forget, don't have to think about. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I would like to invite every person. To visit a Lebanese family in their own home. 

Mm-hmm. 

Roula: This experience is amazing because when you arrive, you will get coffee, everything will be lined up and ready. Okay? After the coffee you will have fruit, and after the fruit you might have snacks.

Roula: And they won't let you go. They will keep you there at dinner. Oh wow. And you're gonna stay there for dinner and you will not be able to drive back home because the bottles of whiskey and AR will come out of the cupboards [00:03:00] and everyone will be drinking and having a great time. Sometimes even they will start throwing something on their barbe barbecue.

Roula: Mm-hmm. They, they will open the fridge and get everything in there and make the best dishes or just pre, like, be prepared already. They know you're coming for a visit. They will already know, okay, we might stay for dinner. We, it's never planned, but it happens. Mm-hmm. So really the cultural thing that I like to everyone to experience is visiting a Lebanese family in their own home.

Roula: Mm. Because it's an experience of smells and food and conversations and drinks and chaos. It's really nice. Mm. And leaving is gonna be hard because when you're at the door and everyone is tipsy, uh, the conversations will take even longer at the door. And that's another hour of talking. Oh my 

Rosie: god, 

Roula: you [00:04:00] know?

Roula: So this experience is amazing and it's so in contradiction with a Dutch experience. 

Rosie: Oh, okay. I 

Roula: rarely visit a Dutch person in their own house. They never invite you into their home. What? What? You'll meet them outside, but not in their house. Mm. Uh, that's a big, big difference. Yeah. I hope I answered the question on the, I mean, this is something I did not think about.

Roula: Mm-hmm. But it stay with me every time. Mm. How wonderful it is to visit a Lebanese person in their own home. 

Rosie: It sounds so welcoming. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, 

Roula: yes. Very welcoming. 

Rosie: I'll, I'll tell you what I struggle with. I. I just don't know how to answer this question and I've been thinking about it, and maybe that's my problem, that we got the question in advance and I've [00:05:00] had time to think about it because do I identify with Australian culture?

Rosie: There's a lot of it I don't like, do I identify with Greek culture? No. I've always been so separate from it, but I think. And I don't think it's my culture, but in Australia there's indigenous Australians and I think everybody should experience in person. I think they call it a corroboree. So it's when the indigenous people, or aboriginals in particular Aboriginal people come together and they dance.

Rosie: It's like storytelling through dance, and they play music and they sing. I have been brought to tears by it. It is. I have no idea what they're singing about, but it is so visceral. It just draws you in. I think everybody should experience that. It's beautiful. It's, [00:06:00] it's stunning. 

Roula: Wow. And so tell me, if I visit you in Australia 

Rosie: Mm, 

Roula: what would be.

Roula: Not if when I visited Australia. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Yeah. What would be the first thing you want to show me? Introduce me to, 

Rosie: oh, probably the beaches, our beautiful beaches, our coastline. It'd be something in na, the beaches, and then. I don't know. Do you even like being in nature ruler? Is that just a me thing?

Rosie: Yeah, I do love. You do? Okay, good. I love nature. Good. I do. It's a beautiful beach. Not a touristy one. Not Bondi Beach. Not surface paradise, nothing like that. Really nice quiet one. And then maybe take you to the Australian bush, which is different depending on where you are. I recently drove through the Kimley Stunning.

Rosie: Like it, it's breathtaking. Australia just has so many different landscapes. It's a big country. So I think I'd wanna be showing you the natural beauties of Australia. That's what I'd do. [00:07:00] 

Roula: And is it easy to visit indigenous people to have this experience of the dancing and the music? 

Rosie: It's easy if you do it in a, in a tourist attraction kind of way, but I think I have never experienced it in.

Rosie: In an aboriginal community, like where, where indigenous people are living and this is their culture, their clan. I have experienced it. Um, mostly we have something called NAIDOC Week, which is like one of the, it's like a token week where we celebrate indigenous culture essentially. So often, and as a teacher, often schools bring in.

Rosie: Indigenous dancers or people to share their stories, their culture, their language. So that's the context I've seen it in. And even in that context, it's breathtaking. So it's not as easy, I guess, to go into community because [00:08:00] there's, what's the word? It's not etiquette, it kind of is. That's the white person word for it.

Rosie: I can't think of it. But you know, you need to be very respectful of the elders and get permission and. There's various things, so I don't necessarily think it is easy. There are tourist attractions you can go to where it's all very touristy and I think a little bit fake and you'd probably enjoy it, but an authentic experience.

Rosie: I wanna experience an authentic experience, and I wanna take you there with me. I want to go there. Let's go. 

Roula: Alright, so Rosie, it means that you have to go a little bit searching for what's cultural thing in Australia. You would like to ask others to enter, I mean, yes, of course. The beaches, the nature.

Roula: This is definitely, you know, I, I, I can't wait to see it. 

Rosie: Oh yeah. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. When I think Australian culture. The first thing my mind goes to, which I'm a [00:09:00] bit embarrassed about, is not the indigenous culture. The people who are first here. It's two stereotypical things like having a barbecue or wearing your thongs or that sort of thing.

Rosie: And yeah, that's fine. I think a big thing in Australia is what 

Roula: the thongs wearing. Your thongs 'cause it every language might mean 

Rosie: something. Oh god. It does, doesn't it? Uh. In New Zealand, they called 'em jandals. In the UK they call 'em flip flops. 

Roula: Oh, okay. 

Rosie: Yeah. Thong in the UK means G-string, so I don't know.

Rosie: Yeah. Yeah. 

Roula: Thong, thong, thong, thong. Yeah. Yeah. You know the song 

Rosie: well. Yeah. Here thongs. Mean sandals, so maybe it's our, our slang. That's a good part to experience. I think it is. We've got some pretty weird words. 

Roula: Okay. Okay. Yes. As for for the Dutch culture, mm. This is where I have a full stop. Oh, it's hard.[00:10:00] 

Roula: Mm. It's hard. And I think this is why the Oh, oh my goodness. I don't want to take this very seriously. Look when you don't, and it just like. Your experience. Mm-hmm. When you don't invite people into your home, they will not know who you really are. Right? Yeah. They will be scared of you. They will think you're different.

Roula: You have a different belief. Um, you see? Yes. That's, that's okay. But when you invite people to your home and share a meal or a conversation, whatever, this is how you get to know people. And I think this is where our cultures are struggling, is that we want others to embrace our culture, but we don't want to invite them in.

Roula: Oh. Say that again. And this is, we want people to embrace cultures, but we don't want to invite them in. And I'm saying this from a background of experience. Mm-hmm. My first years in the Netherlands were very lonely 'cause no one invited me into the Dutch [00:11:00] culture. Wow. Wow. The expectations of me to become Dutch were so big, but I didn't know how.

Roula: I don't see the example. Yes, my ex is Dutch, but his family lived too far to have this interaction. Um, on the other hand, when the visitors come here. When I have visitors into the Netherlands, I just take their hand and we go into the beautiful streets. We have, we have some kind of nice Dutch Street food, which is sweet, especially if they're here around Christmas.

Roula: Mm-hmm. Or, um, you, you know, the tulip fields and the flowers in spring. But are these cultural, I don't know. 

Rosie: What does culture even mean? That's what I'm struggling with. What is culture?

Roula: Yeah, you see me? This is how 

Rosie: you can shut me up. But isn't it the question, and I find it [00:12:00] interesting that you found it so easy to answer it. When thinking of your time in Lebanon, is it because you were born and raised there, or is there something else that's different? 

Roula: No. No, because even after 24 years in the Netherlands.

Roula: I still have the same experience. Hmm. So even if I was born here, I would not be, uh, visiting Dutch people in their house. 

Rosie: Yeah. 

Roula: And for, I know most of my listeners are Dutch, and I hope they see it from my perspective, is that if we want people to come to our country and speak our language, we have to invite them in our homes.

Rosie: Mm. I like that 

Roula: if we want them to let go of their communities and live as they live in their own cultures from the country where they came from, we have to open up for them to invite them in our culture. And it's [00:13:00] reciprocated because look, 24 years, when I came here and we went out to have, um, sandwich or go somewhere I couldn't eat because.

Roula: The food was so unhealthy and it's, I don't want to say so Dutch, but yeah. No vegetables, no salads, no nothing healthy. And I was used to the Mediterranean diet. Yeah, 

Rosie: yeah. 

Roula: And because of the mix of cultures in these 24 years, I can have the best food here in the Netherlands. Yeah. And it's not because of the Dutch culture.

Roula: Mm-hmm.

Roula: The mix of cultures make something good because we can't stand alone and praise our culture. 

Rosie: Okay, okay. Like a, like something. So this, this is a question and I guess we're getting deeper here, but I wanna go there 'cause you've mentioned a few times if we want people to embrace our culture, we need to welcome them into our homes.

Rosie: But are you saying we want people [00:14:00] to assimilate, to take on our culture, or are you saying we want them to feel welcome? There's Dnce to feel welcome and safe 

Roula: and like it, 

Rosie: right. 

Roula: Accept it. 

Rosie: Mm-hmm. 

Roula: Assimilation is not bad because it's reciprocated. We all have to assimilate. Others want culture to be able to live together.

Roula: Mm-hmm. 

Rosie: Because 

Roula: there's a lot of debate on this 

Rosie: though. 

Roula: Yeah. Yeah. If you can't assimilate a culture, then you will never fit. In this kind of life, then you will have your own community and you will be an outsider. 

Hmm. 

Roula: And it, it won't work. 

Rosie: But see, assimilation, to me, I wonder if we have a different understanding, is when, so for example, if I moved to the Netherlands, if I assimilated, it would be, I would be in the minority as an Australian.

Rosie: There. To assimilate into the Dutch culture, I would need to [00:15:00] adopt the so-called values beliefs of Dutch people. That to me is assimilation, and I'm not sure I like that. Why can I not honor my beliefs, values, behaviors, and also value theirs? To me, that's not really assimilation. 

Roula: Well, I don't think all Dutch people have the same beliefs.

Roula: Yeah. I guess that goes for all cultures though, right? Surely. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I mean, assimilate, I think it's accepting. Maybe assimilation is not the right word then in this context. It's accepting each other. Yeah, respecting each other. And I do want to say, if you notice that this culture. It's something you don't want to embrace that probably it's not the right place for you to live.

Rosie: Yeah. Maybe move. Yeah. 

Roula: Yes. And I also say this because at the end of the day, you can't change a culture. Mm-hmm. [00:16:00] It's either you like, get into it, feel embraced, share it, and keep on living your life. 

Rosie: Yeah. Yeah. Coex more than one culture can coexist. Think 

Roula: this 

Rosie: is 

Roula: why 

Rosie: we're 

Roula: living. Come on. 

Rosie: Right. This 

Roula: is how we're striving and growing.

Rosie: I think so too. There's a lot of people who don't think that, but let's not go there. There's a a lot of heat in the political climate, but I just think we can honor more than one culture. We have so much to learn from one another. We don't have to like everything about other people's cultures 'cause it's okay.

Rosie: Like it's okay, but just don't be hateful. 

Roula: Yes. And you agree. Invite people to your home. 

Rosie: Mm. 

Roula: Okay. That's, that's beautiful. My 

Rosie: home's messy. I'm not sure I want you here. 

Roula: Well, I will come first I your house, and then I will come again as a visitor. 

Rosie: Love it. Hey, ruler. 

Roula: [00:17:00] Yes. 

Rosie: You keep bumping your microphone and it is very annoying.

Roula: Oh, you hear it? 

Rosie: Yeah. 

Roula: Throughout the entire episode a 

Rosie: little bit. 

Roula: Mm, I'm sorry. It's terrible. 

Rosie: You're naughty. Mm. That's okay. It was a good episode though. So let us know everybody. What is a cultural experience you would love other people to experience? I said experience twice. I don't know how Codex worded it, but he said it beautifully.

Roula: Well, I hope that we answered the question to you, Ko, so, so I'm not sure I did. 

Rosie: Mm, 

Roula: if we didn't, please be more specific. Have another question. Maybe a less 

Rosie: difficult one, please. 

Roula: Alright. You know, we only like to scratch the surface. 

Rosie: Of course. Yes. Scratch the surface. Uh, my. 

Roula: Bye.

Rosie: If you got a kick out of our conversation today, can you pretty please hit the follow button [00:18:00] and share it with another opinionated person? This is the easiest way for you to support the show. It also gives ruler and I the motivation to keep, I have to stop 

Roula: you there. Stop telling people what to do. If they like to follow the show and share it, it's totally up to them.

Roula: Guys, please can you help us follow and share the show? Thank you so much time.