64: Is It OK To Tell White Lies?

Rosie (00:00)
I'm too sexy for my... To my... Sexy? It hurts!

Roula (00:02)
from my head to sexy from my head so sexy it hurts

and I'm too sexy for my body I used to sing this at the beach just for fun for my sister and her

Rosie (00:13)
Shit!

Lies. Should we talk about white lies?

Roula (00:31)
white lies?

Rosie (00:34)
Have you heard that? White lies?

Roula (00:36)
I

heard that and let's talk about it.

Rosie (00:41)
I've got thoughts popping into my head as I'm speaking right now.

Roula (00:45)
Please, please start,

start, because I don't know where to start now.

Rosie (00:47)
What?

Well the first thing I thought is...

white lies are considered acceptable. They're white lies. And then I thought, well, why? Why don't we call them black lies? Why does it have to be a color? okay, we need to start there. Right. Okay. So a white lie...

Roula (01:00)
What's a white lie?

Yeah!

Rosie (01:09)
It's like a little lie. It's not hurting anybody. Rula is pointing to her mandarins and I'm a little bit confused.

Roula (01:17)
I'm going to quietly eat my mandarin.

Rosie (01:20)
Everyone's going to hear it, but that's okay. This is ASMR. We can definitely hear that.

Roula (01:27)
Does it turn you on, the sound?

Rosie (01:29)
really doesn't.

Roula (01:32)
Okay, okay back to our episode. Sorry, I'm going to put myself on silent when I eat

Rosie (01:38)
okay.

White lie. It's considered a little lie. It's okay. It's not hurting anybody. It's being polite. Because often it is told to avoid hurting somebody's feelings. But back to this colour thing. Why is it a white lie? Why isn't it called a little lie, a harmless lie? Why is it a white lie?

And I think it comes down to...

systemic racism. This has just been ingrained and we're not here to talk about racism, but that is where my mind went. We could talk about racism, but I think that is a topic that deserves more than a 10 minute lighthearted episode. But I question the name of it and I'm undecided on whether I think telling a white lie is okay. So I'm going to pass the microphone over to you.

Roula (02:31)
hold on I have to search it because I don't want to go into no I heard of it and I'll tell you what I understand from it

Rosie (02:37)
you still don't understand.

You tell us first what you understand and then we'll look at the definition. Tell us first.

Roula (02:49)
Okay, yes, a white lie, it's a lie indeed. You said it already, that doesn't hurt and that it's accepted. The fact they call it white lie is because it's socially accepted.

Rosie (02:56)
Mm. Yes.

Hmm.

Roula (03:06)
There is no black lie, there is no other kind of lies because a lie is not accepted, a lie is a lie. And I would like to continue talking about this, is it okay to lie or not? A white lie is when you invited me to your place and I don't want to hurt your feelings so I say, I'm sick. I can't come, I'm sick. Could this be a white lie?

Rosie (03:25)
for fuck's sake.

Yeah, but I take offense to that. Just fucking tell me. Get over yourself. You might hurt my feelings, but you know what? You're being honest. Because I'm going to find out that you weren't sick. And I'll say, well, why didn't she just tell me? Hey, I'm not feeling up to it. I don't want to, actually.

Roula (03:49)
But don't forget, we're not talking now about honesty. We're talking about lying.

Rosie (03:53)
But we kinda are,

because what's the opposite of telling a lie? It's being honest. You can't separate them. Okay, right. Right, yep.

Roula (03:58)
I looked it up why it's called white. It's called

white because it's associated with innocence, purity, and goodness that is deeply rooted in many cultures.

Rosie (04:09)
Ugh.

Right.

Roula (04:13)
particularly in Western traditions. And that's prompt me because I'm not raised in a Western tradition. So do we mean white light doesn't exist there? And...

Rosie (04:17)
Yeah.

Mmmmm

Roula (04:29)
That's it. It has nothing racist in it.

Rosie (04:31)
Yeah, well.

Roula (04:31)
It's

like a common knowledge that purity and innocence is white. I don't know why. White dress. A white lie. Look, we would be extremely stupid, not self-conscient and hypocrite if we deny this lie.

Rosie (04:35)
is white. Bloody shit.

Well, what a shit.

Yeah.

Roula (04:59)
Like we all lie. You know, when I say to my kids, his drawing is beautiful, I'm lying. You know, when I say to the shop, I like this shirt and I might come back later to check it. I'm lying.

Rosie (05:01)
Right, yeah, I will accept that, yes.

Whoa!

Why do we do that? Why do you do that? Why?

Roula (05:16)
We lie because

it's a way to not hurt others' feelings and to get away from something. A lie?

Rosie (05:22)
Yes, and I think this getting away is a big part

for me. I wanna shut the conversation down, shut up. I just wanna leave. Yes, I love that, sounds great. Or if someone says, hey, let's go out for coffee. I'll go, yeah, sounds good. In my head I'm going, I don't wanna fucking go out for coffee. I don't drink coffee. I don't wanna spend time with you. No thanks. But I wanna end the conversation. Sounds great. And then we never talk again. White lie.

Roula (05:44)
From a white lie to a big lie, from a white lie to, for example, all the lies Trump is telling, from a white lie to a murder, from a white lie to everything, it's all to get away, not be caught, and manipulate.

Rosie (05:49)
What's a big lie?

avoiding accountability.

Roula (06:05)
And we all do this every day in our life. When someone says, I don't like it when you lie to me, this is important and grave, we say in French. It's heavy. It's important. You know, there is like, it can break a relationship. It can break the trust. These are...

Rosie (06:10)
Hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Roula (06:28)
lies that we don't do lightly every day and spontaneously.

Rosie (06:32)
Mm-hmm.

Roula (06:36)
The white lies are the spontaneous lies we do every day.

You know, I was listening to a podcast and they mentioned something about lies. And they said that a regular person lie 20 times a day, minimum.

Rosie (06:53)
WHAT?! 20 times?! No way! That seems really high.

Roula (06:57)
And Donald Trump lied.

She did study. She has this worldwide, she created a worldwide association to spot study. She did the study, she's Dutch, on Donald Trump from the moment he started his presidency. He lied 35,000 times and they're still counting.

Rosie (07:04)
We need to find this and link it in the description. Yeah. I want to read it. Uh-huh.

god.

So what if the other person doesn't think they're lying?

Is it a lie? Cause I feel like some of this stuff, right. So yeah. Okay. But does it count as a lie? Who's to judge if it's a lie or not?

Roula (07:26)
that they really have a personality disorder.

Well, until now, you wouldn't think that when you say to the shop, I'm coming back later, that it's a lie. You wouldn't think that if you say that you that I don't like the drawing from my son and I say I like it, I'm lying. So far, we're thinking that we are pleasing them with their and when our answer, we're reassuring them, we're making feel good. Reality, we're lying.

Rosie (07:52)
Mmm... Mmm...

Yeah, we are. Yeah.

Roula (07:59)
I was two days ago at the shop to buy lipstick. She kept complimenting every lipstick I'm trying on. She's lying!

Rosie (08:05)
Of course. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Roula (08:08)
She wants to sell me. We're lying continuously. It's confronting and people might not like to think about it this way. In reality, every day we're lying.

Rosie (08:21)
How many times do you think you lie in a day?

Roula (08:24)
white lies.

I didn't count them really. I don't know, maybe 10.

Rosie (08:28)
I need to think about

it. 10 you reckon? Maybe if I spoke to more people, it would be a better guide because some days I don't talk to many people. So it's hard. Well, I'm sure I'm lying to myself all the time.

Roula (08:38)
Mmm.

so you're not lying to yourself.

Rosie (08:48)
But it's like someone who I'm not close with might ask me how I'm doing and I'll say yeah, I'm good. I'm good. Or I'll say I'm not too bad. Thanks.

Roula (08:57)
That's a lie, if you're feeling that you're bad.

Rosie (08:59)
Yeah, it is a lie. Yeah.

Although in my head, I justify it. If I say not bad, I'm not lying because I'm not saying I'm good. I'm not saying I'm bad. I'm just not bad. Although sometimes I am bad. yeah. Well, that's really vulnerable and scary. Not too good. We don't, do we? Not too good. Not too bad.

Roula (09:12)
Why don't you say not too good?

It's more common to say not too bad, but we don't say not too good.

So let me think, what, did I lie this morning? Because like, it's for me it's morning, it's 9.30 in the morning. So, did I lie so far?

Rosie (09:30)
I'm

Okay, okay, yeah.

Roula (09:40)
I'm trying to think of my interactions, which was with my son, getting him ready, my husband.

No, said things genuinely the entire morning. I haven't lied yet. Maybe I did when he said to me they might make noise in the garden. And I said, that's not a problem. I lied because that's a lie because actually, no, I don't want noise in the garden while I'm recording. That's a lie. Yeah.

Rosie (09:55)
Mmm.

huh.

Yeah, that's a lie. That's a lie. Yeah.

You really don't. Yeah, there's your lie. And when did you wake up?

Roula (10:17)
I woke up quarter to seven.

Rosie (10:19)
So in less than three hours, you've already told a lie and you've been on the call with me for half an hour.

Roula (10:23)
I still have plenty of time to lie today.

Yeah, I still have, I still have time. Yeah.

Rosie (10:31)
Interesting.

You do have time, but also in that short amount of time you've already lied.

Woohoo! Do you feel bad about it?

Roula (10:39)
Yes, I lied. Well, dear listener.

I feel bad about... Well, once he listens to this episode, yes, because he will be reprimanding me. Like, why weren't you honest?

Rosie (10:52)
He'll pr- He probably knows though that-

He believed you when you said, that's okay. No problem. Did you think so?

Roula (11:04)
Yeah!

I sounded very convincing.

Rosie (11:09)
Hmm, you might have to ask him. We think, we think people believe our lies, but do they? Are we really? Yeah, yeah. Cause I don't, I won't call people out.

Roula (11:13)
Okay, okay, I'm going to ask him. That's a good one.

I sometimes people

say something and you turn around and your head. you're so full of shit.

Rosie (11:26)
So full of shit, exactly, but you

don't say anything. So I wonder if this is one of those cases. Okay, all right. Hopefully it doesn't trigger an argument. Yeah, I dare you.

Roula (11:32)
I'm going to ask him later. Yeah. Or we can pause and go and ask him now.

Do you want to dare me? I'm going to go and ask him. Okay.

Rosie (11:42)
Yeah, go ahead, do it, do it, do it. Okay, go ask him, okay.

This is great. I'm going to keep it recording. It's going to be annoying to edit. Hopefully she doesn't take forever. I think he might know.

I don't think he'll be upset about it though. Because why hasn't he made sound yet? He's probably trying to wait because he knows that deep down it would annoy Rula. Who's with me on that?

You can leave a comment if you're listening on Spotify or why don't you just send us a voice message? us know.

The suspense is killing me. my God. Hurry up.

If we hear shouting, we know that an argument has started.

Here she comes, here she comes, here she comes. Here she comes.

Roula (12:35)
Rosie, I ran up two stairs, went all the way to the end of the garden.

Rosie (12:39)
Did I out of breath?

Roula (12:42)
so, no glasses. First he was like, what the hell, what are you doing here? You're recording. And he said that he didn't think I'm lying, but he felt I'm trying to believe it myself that it doesn't bother me.

Rosie (12:48)
Ha

Mm.

So

he was, okay, so he was kind of lying in his answer to you because he didn't want to say, yes, I believed your lie. Cause then you'd get upset. He's like, well, I don't think you would laugh.

Roula (13:11)
See?

So these are white lies, one after the other, like it's a chain!

Rosie (13:19)
wow, yes, the chain has started.

Roula (13:20)
It's a chain of white lies. And that's

all because we love each other and we're very considerate, you know?

Rosie (13:27)
Right, so

are you upset then that he told a white lie and you told a white lie? Or is it just funny?

Roula (13:35)
No, I'm well, you know, of course I'm not upset. Imagine. I would be upset at every white lie. We can never be married. Or never live together. We couldn't be a couple, no.

Rosie (13:45)
Yeah

Yeah, All marriages would fall apart. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So are we saying that white lies are okay?

Roula (13:58)
saying that sometimes okay scratch the word sometimes I'm saying

It's impossible for us not to lie.

Rosie (14:08)
Mmm.

We wouldn't have any relationships, would we? I don't think, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As much as you, I just said in an episode that you and I are truth seekers. We want to tell the truth. But imagine Roula if you and I never told a white lie to each other.

Roula (14:11)
No! That's also a point, Rosie!

I can't even remember telling you a white lie. I'm gonna pay attention. I'm sure I did.

Rosie (14:29)
Yeah, I'm not sure either. Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm sure we have too, but isn't

it funny? We can't think of it off the top of our heads. We're in denial.

Roula (14:39)
it didn't affect our relationship so we don't stand still by it.

Rosie (14:41)
Well exactly.

We're not holding a grudge against a white lie.

Roula (14:46)
Yeah. So for

the conclusion, I say that a white lie is whether it's called white or not. It's okay. Yes. Lie, lie as long as you can live happy.

Rosie (14:52)
Is necessary, is that what you're saying? Yeah. It's, I think you're actually going as far as to say it's necessary. Live happy, right. And here's what I would add to that.

I think they're okay to a point. And I challenge our listeners and you Rula and me, this is challenge for all of us to try to tell less of these little lies and see what happens or have the conversation like you just did with your husband.

and see what the reaction is. Because he was a bit like, huh, what?

Roula (15:24)
First, I'm gonna

start making a list of my daily lives.

Rosie (15:29)
white lies.

huh. Don't go into a negative spiral. Yeah, okay.

Roula (15:33)
You know, I can't be consistent.

Okay, okay. I accept the challenge.

Rosie (15:41)
Okay, cool. And we'll report back and try not to tell a white lie when we say how many white lies we've told.

Roula (15:48)
yeah, okay, I agree. Love this one.

Rosie (15:50)
Okay, this could be really confronting.

Roula (15:55)
Thank you dear listeners for listening. I'm not lying. I really, really appreciate every listener. no. No. Yeah, I do. I do. My life, my podcast depends on their listening.

Rosie (16:00)
You're full of shit, do you though? Do you though?

you too.

You almost said your life depends on it. That would have been a lie. Yes, you caught yourself there. Okay, no, no, no, no, no, no. Maybe that was a lie. Your podcast depends on it. Your podcast depends on me.

Roula (16:12)
That would have been a lie. Yes.

Rosie (16:24)
White lie by omission. I think I'm picking a fight. I feel very, very special.

Roula (16:26)
There's no podcast without you.

But that's true. That's true. I was

thinking if something happened to one of us, how do we continue with the podcast? So you're right. OK, but the listener doesn't care about this part. OK, let's just not bother them with it. Bye.

Rosie (16:35)
Yeah, what happens to the podcast? You'd have to find a replacement. We're okay for now. Yeah, okay, okay, okay. Shut up. Yep. Stop, stop, All right, bye.