66: Is an Affair Always The End of A Relationship?

Rosie (00:00)
Yeah.

Roula (00:03)
Do you want to ask the question?

Rosie (00:04)
Okay,

ruler.

Roula (00:08)
So what I wrote is an affair forgivable and how do we look at cheating? So yeah, tied it to the secrets episode. I love this.

Rosie (00:12)
Okay, all right.

Okay, ruler. We

have had some juicy episodes recently. We were talking about white lies. We were talking about secrets. And today I want to continue that theme. Are you ready? Have you got your seatbelt on and your helmet strapped over your chin? Yeah, you're ready? Helmet, please. You haven't put your helmet on. Helmet's on? Okay, good. She's ready, everybody.

Roula (00:36)
I'm ready. Helmet is on. Yes.

My gloves.

Rosie (00:46)
I

I want to know your thoughts about affairs. Are they okay? And how do we navigate them?

Roula (01:08)
In 10 minutes.

Rosie (01:10)
Yeah, let's go! It's a quickie!

Roula (01:13)
It's a quickie. Affairs, affairs, make we complicate affairs, I think more than we should.

Rosie (01:22)
okay.

Roula (01:24)
My raw thinking, and this is something that I talked to you about with my husband, I'm not saying anything here that is a secret or that is a lie. I'm really sharing true conversations that I have with my husband. What I think is that we are on this earth with so many people. I personally don't believe that we're made to be with one person. Does this mean it's okay to cheat? I don't know.

Rosie (01:30)
Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Roula (01:53)
If cheating is making our personal romantic life more vibrant and nicer, then it's doing something good. If cheating is making us want to leave the person, then there's a reason and there's a deep issue here that needs to be talked about. Is cheating because we're feeling we're not getting what we want in a relationship? Are we cheating because we're not being appreciated? Is our partner a bad person?

Rosie (02:01)
Okay.

Hmm

Roula (02:23)
and we're finding refuge. People don't cheat because they're sexual predators or some majority of the people that are cheating, they don't have sex addiction. They're not cheating because they just want to be bad people, bad persons. I'm not saying these don't exist, but in regular relationships, cheating is the result of something and this something.

Rosie (02:32)
Right, right, right.

Okay.

Yeah.

Roula (02:52)
not talked about will never disappear even if the person will stop cheating.

Rosie (02:59)
Okay, let's go back a step. What are we calling cheating? What is cheating?

Roula (03:08)
It's being with a sexual partner, a husband and...

being intimate and maybe sexual with someone else in secret.

Rosie (03:21)
Okay, so doesn't have to

be sexual. It could be intimate in a different way.

Roula (03:26)
yes, I think, yeah. For me, it could be physical or it could be emotional.

Rosie (03:30)
Yeah? Yes.

Emotional,

okay cool. All right, I think we're on the same page. And I've just Googled how common it is for couples to cheat. I have no idea if this is accurate, but we're going with it. It occurs in roughly 18 to 20 % of marriages and 30 to 40 % of unmarried relationships.

Roula (03:37)
Yeah.

Yes.

I think it's higher. We're so scared. You know, we think, if you cheat on me, it's the end of our relationship. But what if this cheating, cheating situation is the wake up call for something better in the relationship?

Rosie (04:03)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, so you're saying then cheating is forgivable.

Roula (04:21)
Of course. Yes, yes.

Rosie (04:22)
Of course. Ooh. So have you

been in this situation before?

Roula (04:27)
many times with my boyfriend I didn't cheat because I don't want to talk about this it's weird okay when I was younger my relationships were short and quick because I was scared that they would cheat on me because I grew up in a culture where men are allowed to cheat

Rosie (04:29)
Many times. Yeah.

Okay, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Roula (04:55)
And I didn't like the idea that women are not allowed to cheat. But back then, I didn't know anything about open relationships, you know, having the freedom to have sex with other people. Even if you're in a relationship, there is so many aspects to have a fulfilling life outside just the traditional norms. I didn't know about that.

Rosie (04:58)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Hmm.

Roula (05:19)
And well, I have very close people, very, close, who were cheating and they decided not to break their marriage, to stay together. Things got better. And also there are the ones that their marriage broke or the relationship got destroyed because of the cheating. When I say, you know, it's a controversial topic when I talk about it, people think I'm saying cheating is good.

Rosie (05:31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

That's not what you're saying there, right? Yeah.

Roula (05:49)
But cheating, I'm not saying

it's good. I'm saying it could be good. Could be good.

Rosie (05:55)
Right, yeah, yeah,

it could be. Okay. Do you think...

it's okay to keep cheating a secret.

Roula (06:07)
No. No one will live happy with such a secret. You know, in our episode about secrets, you mentioned something that when you have a secret and then it results in lies and damaging relationships. This is what cheating will become.

Rosie (06:08)
Mm.

Mmm.

Yes.

Roula (06:26)
lies, damaging. It's cheating as an adventure could open up doors of conversations, doors of healing, doors of exploring communication with the partner. Why are we in this situation? And it can hit rock bottom before it gets better. And both partner must be open. This is something we talk in our podcast too. We're very much about accountability.

Rosie (06:38)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Roula (06:55)
good communication, self-development. And cheating can result in self-development.

Rosie (07:00)
Hmm.

Yeah? Yeah?

Roula (07:04)
What I also think is must also must be forgivable. You know this idea. Oh, I can't imagine you with someone else, someone touching you or you're doing something with. I'm going to get over yourself if you've given me what I want. I wouldn't be cheating. And I and I'm not saying just only for the woman. I'm just saying this also for the man because. We all cheat, so there's a reason for the cheating.

Rosie (07:28)
we all cheat. Go back. What do you mean by that?

Roula (07:31)
man or woman. In the culture that I grew up in, I thought only men cheat. But now I know better. Also women cheat.

Rosie (07:32)
I see what you mean. Okay. Gotcha.

Yeah, not true. Yeah.

Mmm.

Okay, next question to check I'm understanding. This is so fascinating. Cheating. Is it only cheating if it's a secret? So if I've had a conversation with my partner and say, I want to explore having a sexual relationship with another person, is that cheating? If it's an open, right. Okay. No, I'm on the same page. Secret. Okay. Okay.

Roula (07:53)
that I'm talking openly about this.

No, of course not! Of course not. Cheating is when it's secret, when it's a lie. Yes.

Rosie (08:14)
But cheating can be good. Why is it that as a society, and it seems pretty consistent across many cultures, probably not all. Yeah, Western. Okay, exactly. That's a better way. So across Western cultures, yeah. Why do we see cheating as absolutely unforgivable? Because that seems to be the common belief. If someone cheats, they are

Roula (08:23)
Western society, not all cultures indeed. And Middle Eastern.

Rosie (08:43)
absolute scum.

Roula (08:48)
Because our body must be owned by someone and that someone is our partner.

Rosie (08:55)
gross yeah right

Roula (08:58)
That's the only reason I can think of. I can cheat in my head all day long. No one knows about it. It's my secret. I'm lying. I have a secret in my head. And yeah.

Rosie (09:03)
Yeah... Yeah true!

I mean, that's not really cheating

though, is it? If it's in your head, or is it?

Roula (09:16)
think

on the contrary because when you have now our goodness this conversation is crazy I love it I love it because when you have this fantasy these are you called fantasy and they might even lead you to a better connection with your partner to the better intimacy even better sex I believe fantasies are are like a pillar in improving and maintaining our sex life

Rosie (09:23)
It is.

Mmm.

Roula (09:46)
And this is why

I don't think it's cheating.

Rosie (09:50)
I thought you just said you thought it was cheating. Okay, no. Yeah.

Roula (09:53)
No, your thoughts, it's

a secret. It depends. If this thought is about the neighbor next door who you so badly want to be with, that's freaking cheating in your head. But who am I to determine this stuff? It's just me, my personal opinion.

Rosie (10:05)
Okay, all right, so still counts. Yeah.

So do you think every couple who has experienced cheating in one way or another, do you think every couple should try to work through that and keep the relationship?

Roula (10:26)
Now keep the relationship, don't know. But I think every couple that's been through cheating, it's worth seeking counseling and coaching someone to help them figure out why this has happened.

Rosie (10:40)
So if I said to you, my partner cheated on me and I immediately went, no, not okay, and I left them, what would you say to me? I didn't see counseling, none of that.

Roula (10:50)
If you're

a very good friend of mine, I would ask you why do you think your partner cheated on you? Put the hurt and the ego aside.

Rosie (10:59)
That's a confronting question.

Roula (11:04)
because they might not be cheating on someone better than you in your opinion. My question would be, what do they need that you're not giving them?

Rosie (11:15)
Mmm.

Roula (11:15)
And

their fault is that they didn't talk about it with you probably. Or your both fault is you can't talk about it.

Rosie (11:23)
Mm-hmm.

So there's joint accountability.

Roula (11:29)
Definitely, it's always a two-way street, unless it's a psycho, sick, whatever, the bad relationships. But we're talking here about the regular healthy normal relationship.

Rosie (11:32)
Mm.

Okay, yeah. That's hard though, isn't it? Asking someone what their role was in it and why they think it happened. that's hard.

Roula (11:53)
would love it if couples talk more about sex and fantasies and desires because this will avoid that they cheat. It might open other doors of pleasure but then mutual pleasure together and not one go cheating to their pleasure and the other one feel bad.

Rosie (12:02)
Hmm.

Maybe you need to be a sex coach, Rula.

I feel like you've thought about this a lot. This is your calling. Yeah.

Roula (12:18)
Yes, I did. I'm

passionate about this topic. I want every person to have good, healthy, intimate and sexual life.

Rosie (12:24)
Yeah.

Mm.

Roula (12:33)
It will look like different for everybody. You know, and this is why I find it very important. This conversation will not happen if the persons are not doing the individual work first.

Rosie (12:48)
Yeah. Okay.

So many more questions, but I think this was a really good like taster. It's a good taster. Cheating in affairs. Oh, this would be a, yes, this would be a very good, very good episode. And even the idea of cheating on yourself. I think that is a thing.

Roula (12:56)
Yeah, you have to guest me on your podcast for deeper conversation.

Give me an example.

Rosie (13:14)
Damn it! I haven't thought through this well, but if-

Roula (13:17)
I like...

Rosie (13:21)
Well if you're... yeah, like if you're... if you're doing something that is betraying who you are, would you not say that's cheating on yourself?

Roula (13:21)
It's an expression you hear about probably and you don't know really what it means.

like

me having a cake and taking a little piece all the time like I'm cheating on myself is this an example? no okay

Rosie (13:38)
Well...

No, I don't think so. No, that's just, that's

tricking yourself into thinking you're eating less. Different, different topic. But if I was, I think it's a very loaded or emotional way of saying you're doing something that doesn't feel aligned. If I was to go back into a nine to five job, move back into a house, maybe that's cheating on myself. Yeah, betrayal. Okay, fine. Betrayal. Yeah. But isn't cheating a betrayal?

Roula (14:04)
It's more betrayal than betraying your core beliefs or whatever you want to call it.

It is. It depends. I mean, the one cheated on definitely feels betrayed. Definitely. And that person require also some healing and some self-reflection. It's two-way street. Two-way street, people.

Rosie (14:22)
Yeah.

think we're going to get some interesting feedback on this episode Roula Brace yourself. Brace yourself. Let's go. Let's go.

Roula (14:38)
Yeah. Throw stones at me or embrace what I'm saying. It's up to you. I

don't mind. We're all different. Yes.

Rosie (14:47)
And we love a debate, right? Our minds

could be changed, yeah.

Okay.

Roula (14:55)
That's about cheating. Thank you for listening. Bye.