67: Why You Should NEVER Tell Someone to 'Calm Down'

Roula (00:08)
You know what's remarkable? This is like the first thing for me in the morning, my coffee, this recording every Thursday. And for you, it's probably the last thing you do before you get ready for dinner, et cetera. Is this true? Would you say what I'm saying is true or false?

Rosie (00:22)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

It's

true. It's true. Well, I mean, not the last thing I do. It's not like I go to bed, but yeah. It'll be dinner after this and a movie. I'm going to watch a movie.

Roula (00:33)
Yes, okay, okay,

Rosie (00:40)
Can you hear the rain?

Roula (00:42)
Can you hear the rain?

Rosie (00:46)
raindrops keep falling on my head

Roula (00:49)
I don't hear the rain. That's the answer actually to your question.

Rosie (00:51)
Okay, good, okay.

Roula (01:05)
Rosie, I have a question for you and I think you are very opinionated about it. And it's not like wrong or right. It's very personal. How do you feel when you are in a certain emotional state and the person you're talking to asking you to calm down? Telling you literally these two words, calm down.

Rosie (01:10)
I don't know what you're talking about.

No, I'm right.

It has the opposite effect. Piss off, calm down. I am like in a state of overwhelm or anger or grief, whatever it is. And you're telling me to calm down. Like do you really think that's going to help me in this moment? No. In fact, it makes me angry at you. Don't fricking tell me to calm down. You think, do you think I'm not calming down by choice? I need help right now.

Roula (01:31)
Why? Why?

Rosie (01:56)
or I'm expressing myself right now. Don't shut me down.

Roula (02:02)
And why do you think they ask you to calm down?

Rosie (02:07)
Mmm.

Hmm. I think there can be two reasons. One is they feel uncomfortable with however you're behaving. The other is they're trying to make you feel better.

Roula (02:19)
Okay, so they feel uncomfortable with however you're behaving. What would this behavior look like?

Rosie (02:21)
Mm. Mm.

Maybe you're angry.

Roula (02:29)
Mm-hmm.

Rosie (02:31)
I can have a fiery personality. I can get loud. I'm loud in normal conversation. Okay. So can you imagine what I'm like when I'm angry? I think

Roula (02:41)
But are you loud

at that person or are you loud telling your story in a loud way?

Rosie (02:47)
A both

No, yeah, it's not directed at them. I might be telling a story I'm frustrated about and I might swear or get loud. And yeah, they might interrupt and say, calm down. I'm like, for fuck's sake, can you just listen to me? I'm expressing frustration.

Roula (03:04)
Yes, yes, this is the context that

indeed.

So you're not loud or angry towards that specific person, you're telling the story that's making you angry with emotions and they're telling you to calm down.

Rosie (03:18)
Right. Yes.

Yes. Yes. I mean, in the other other situations, it's also annoying, but let's focus on that because it's something I have experienced a lot as a very expressive, loud, opinionated person. Some people can't deal with that.

Roula (03:37)
So do you think it's their fault that they can't deal with that or there is something you can do about it? It's becoming like a sick, it's like, a psychological therapy session now.

Rosie (03:46)
That's

it. What is this? that's really hard. I, well, yes, yes. Put your thinking hats on everybody. And you know what's so hard about our episodes, Roula is we don't give each other a heads up on what we're talking about. So you, the listeners hear us talking through it. Like I'm talking through this the first time. This is unfiltered thoughts. So I think it makes it genuine.

Roula (03:51)
I think the listeners will benefit from reflecting.

show.

Rosie (04:13)
So this is not scripted. That's why I'm having trouble answering that. So who's responsible? Is either person responsible? I think it's okay. I'm an expressive person. That's okay. That's someone who's sensitive to that kind of noise or behaviour. That's okay. So how do you navigate that? I don't know, but saying calm down, I can tell you right now. That's how you don't deal with it.

Roula (04:17)
I love this about our podcast.

I have to agree with you on saying calm down, it also works the contrary for me. And my, I had a great relationship with my mom. The moments where I would argue with her and I would really get angry and upset are the moment she asked me to calm down. She's a very calm person and doesn't let her emotions take control of her.

Rosie (04:45)
you

Hmm.

Roula (05:06)
and she couldn't understand that someone else is experiencing these emotions. So I'm not saying she didn't let her emotions take control of her because she was in a higher place of consciousness, no. That was her character and her character could not understand that another person has strong emotions and the need to let it out. And instead of coaching me on letting them out, she triggered me more.

Rosie (05:33)
Yeah. Why does it, why did it trigger you and why does it trigger you?

Roula (05:38)
it triggers me because it feels like the other person is not listening to what's upsetting me

Rosie (05:42)
Yes!

This is exactly it. It feels dismissive. Yeah. Just listen.

Roula (05:46)
They're focused on my throne. Yes.

Yeah. And my I mean, I think our responsibility, we both have it, you and I. I'm asking you is this I can also if I put myself in the shoes of others, because I also had this situation where the other person is dealing with all very strong emotions. I don't say calm down because I know what it does to me. I don't. It happens to every one of us. It is impossible not to let.

Rosie (06:08)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Roula (06:19)
once in a while our emotions should be big. We must. It's okay. And I don't say to the other person to calm down. I'm training myself and so many years already to listen. Let them let it all out because it's not the right moment to coach anyone when they are in their emotions. And to go back to you, do you how do you feel like what's what

Rosie (06:24)
great.

Hmm.

⁓

Roula (06:43)
way I want to say manir in Dutch, which manner or way would you bring your frustration so that the other one would listen and not be dismissive? Because you know we can't teach them to listen and not be dismissive we can pave the way for that.

Rosie (07:00)
So you think we should change our behaviour to accommodate the other person. Is that what you're saying?

Roula (07:05)
I like when you challenge me. What if I'm saying yes, we should change our behavior?

Rosie (07:09)
Then

no, piss off. I'm not changing to please somebody else. Can you tell this is like a trigger point for me? I think, I think it's a joint resp- fuck yeah.

Roula (07:19)
It is. Calm down.

Rosie (07:27)
Even though I know you're joking, I'm already pissed off. But I don't think it's on one person to change the behavior. What I think is if it's a relationship you care about, maybe if I'm the one feeling uncomfortable, I say, hey, Rosie, I really want to support you right now. But I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable or I find it hard to listen.

I don't know how you would say it without making the other person upset. I actually don't know. If someone said to me, I think you're being a bit loud, I'd be pissed off. But maybe if they said, look, I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable and it's not you, it's just. I like, what do you think Rula? I don't know if that would work, but there has to be some sort of conversation about how to communicate with one another.

Roula (07:51)
in.

Look, from my personal life experience, my father was someone who would get very angry, the opposite of my mom. He would get angry and scream and terrifies us. And I think this is my trigger. I copied this behavior from him for so many years. And when I think about when someone else is acting like this towards me.

Rosie (08:14)
Right.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Roula (08:29)
What triggers me is these moments where I felt helpless in front of my dad who was having all these big emotions and I couldn't get away or tell him to stop. And this what when someone is being loud telling me some loud emotion in the beginning because now I trained myself to accept it and let go of my pain, my past in this experience.

Rosie (08:36)
Yeah.

Roula (08:54)
And I think you don't know the other person why they're being dismissive. My mom, for example, wanted me to be happy and not have this emotion. And that's why she was asking me to calm down. She wanted to make me feel better and it's not a big deal, et cetera. She didn't have the tools to tell me the right words. And the right words would look like, it's horrible that you're feeling this way. I feel it for you.

Rosie (08:59)
Right.

Mmm.

Mm. Mm.

Roula (09:23)
calm down when she said if she would say this to me.

Rosie (09:25)
Yeah,

this is true. I agree. And maybe it's about if the other person says calm down, say, look, I feel like you're dismissing me when you say that.

Roula (09:37)
This might trigger an argument because the other person would be like, I'm not, it's confrontational. Yes. The best thing is that we respect the other one's emotion and let them have it. Let them feel it. And before it escalates, when you're having this emotion, the other person, when they tell you it's horrible how you're feeling,

Rosie (09:39)
Well, this is true. very confrontational, isn't it?

Roula (10:04)
I feel it with you.

It could also mean for you, it's enough. They recognized your emotion and now it's to calm down really. And that I think the self-talk that we should have in our mind. Because also it's not fair for the other person to be like the one getting all this negative energy because of this emotion after they have approved it.

Rosie (10:29)
Sometimes you need that though,

right? So I, I don't think I'm cool with the idea of, okay, they've said they heard me, I need to stop now. But I also, I'm also hearing what you say and that maybe it's not fair on the other person, because you're just dumping all this stuff on them. Like it takes a toll on the person listening as well.

Roula (10:39)
No, stop now!

True. How about if, I mean, it's not impossible, it requires training. We should train ourselves. When there is this emotion, before we go and blare it out on someone, why don't we let it sit a little bit, five to 10 minutes with us? Have five to 10 minutes, take a pause.

Rosie (11:07)
Mm-hmm.

Mm, take a pause.

Roula (11:16)
and come back and say to that person.

Rosie (11:16)
This is true. I'm so

terrible at just taking a pause. So hard, yeah.

Roula (11:22)
It doesn't work from the first time. You have

to work years on it and it never ends. But when you take the pause, you would come back and say to this other person, hey, if you have the energy now, I'm so frustrated and I need to let it out. I need an ear for it.

Rosie (11:27)
Pfft! Hmm...

This is true.

And that's something I've started to do. I asked the other person, Hey, I really need to have a vent. you, that okay? Like, have you got time for that? Because otherwise you're just offloading this shit and it could actually really ruin their day. They might have enough on their plate. They don't have capacity to listen to you.

Roula (11:50)
Yes.

Amazing! The capacity! That's a wonderful word!

Rosie (12:02)
So how can you expect them

to support you if you haven't even checked in with them?

Roula (12:10)
True. know, Esther Perel said, I don't know if it was Esther Perel or Mel Robbins, one of them. They said, no, probably Esther Perel in a romantic relationship. But I think this works in every, everywhere. It works everywhere, I think. She would ask her husband, how much are you today? What percentage? If he's on 50 % and she's on 20%,

Rosie (12:23)
It would have been Esther Perel for sure, yeah.

Hmm?

Roula (12:38)
then they agree who's going to carry the rest of the load to get to 100%. If she's 70 % and he's 30%, then she takes on whatever might come in because she has the capacity and the energy for it. And when we have these conversations, Rosie, I think we stop saying calm down. We stop feeling like you're attacking me even though they're not the problem.

Rosie (12:55)
Wow. Wow.

Yes,

yes. Yeah, because I've been told before, this has only happened once, but you're being really aggressive right now. And I just went, whoa.

I wouldn't want to come across aggressive to a friend. Like, no, but I'm passionate. And it really triggered me and made me go, because if someone thinks I'm being aggressive, they're going to feel unsafe. And this was a person who'd experienced domestic violence in their past. And I was so conflicted. I wanted to say, I'm not. But also I needed to take on, well, hang on a minute.

I'm really making them feel uncomfortable. But in that conversation, there wasn't a nice resolution. The other person wasn't willing to come to the party. And because I changed, I adapted how I was talking and the other person was very dismissive. So I don't, it's probably not a very good example, but

Roula (14:03)
think the other person probably

needed some time off, like a break from the conversation. Because you can't switch from, your cortisol is so high, you can't head down and calm down and go back to normal conversation.

Rosie (14:07)
Mm. Mm.

So is it, was it

my responsibility to say, let's hit pause or was it hers?

Roula (14:23)
No, it's not your responsibility. It's no one's responsibility. Whoever would take this initiative is great as long as there's an agreement when to come back. Because it hurts so much to say, let's take a pause and never come back. When it comes back, it's even bigger.

Rosie (14:38)
Yeah, yeah. So you...

you think?

Roula (14:44)
because it's simmering like you you didn't talk about it and you don't know when you're going to talk about it

Rosie (14:50)
But you

were saying before, take a pause and then talk about it. But now you're saying it makes it worse.

Roula (14:56)
No, no, In the heat of the moment, if you want to take a pause or the other person take a pause, it's good to say, OK, I need an hour or day. Let me sleep on it. We talk tomorrow. that the next day, whomever requested the pause, the next day to come back and talk about it. First, ask if it's the right moment, because again, if you don't have the capacity, it won't help. The other thing that I said, five, 10 minutes to calm down.

Rosie (15:08)
He

Roula (15:24)
You haven't spoken about it. The other person doesn't know what's going on.

Rosie (15:28)
if you tell someone you need some time away, that it's not good because then you're simmering with all your thoughts and feelings. Did you mean that or not?

Roula (15:39)
Yes, if you tell someone, no, no, no, the other person might be simmering because they don't know when are you coming back.

Rosie (15:44)
Right.

I see. So you have to say, give a timeframe. So at least they, is that what you mean? Yeah. Okay. Right. Let's take a pause. Talk to you tomorrow.

Roula (15:52)
Yes, yes. Yeah.

Yeah, let's take a pause.

Do not use the word calm down. Just throw it to the trash bin. Now I'm getting emotional.

Rosie (16:04)
Yeah, put in the trash. Calm

down, Rula!

Roula (16:08)
Calm down, calm down. Okay. Yeah.

Rosie (16:10)
⁓ that phrase. Yeah, anyway, let us know everybody.

What do you think about two words calm down? Does it make you calm down?

Roula (16:19)
hold on. If someone would say calm the fuck down, is this different? It's the same. Just throw them all to the trash bin. Thank you, Rosie, for being so vulnerable today on this episode.

Rosie (16:20)
Mmm.

You calm the fuck down!

Yeah, same, same. Yeah!

You too, as usual.