71: Control and Shame - the 9 to 5 Work Hours

Rosie (00:00)

You can hear me though, yeah? Yes, okay. Ruler.

Roula (00:01)

I can, yes.

Rosie.

Rosie (00:08)

You talk too much.

You there? I can't hear you.

Either?

Roula (00:18)

Calm

the fuck down, Rosie. What do you mean I talk too much?

Rosie (00:23)

Only kidding. Only kidding. Feel like you have been asking a lot of the questions lately. So my turn.

Neither you or I work traditional jobs anymore. Podcasting is, is what we spend our time doing. Not that we earn from it, but that is, that's kind of our thing right now. However, we've both had traditional jobs.

And there's a lot of structure typically around these jobs.

I want to know your opinion on the structure of you go into work. This is when you clock in. This is when you clock out. Do as I say, my way or the highway.

Roula (01:26)

When I think how after COVID nothing changed, I feel a wave of anger, so much anger because I hear people have to be at work at nine again, nine o'clock in the morning. And my experience at work, I have worked at all my life in the Netherlands and in Lebanon.

Rosie (01:31)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Roula (01:54)

My last job from 2018 was different, was super flexible, I loved that place. But before that, everywhere I worked, I had to start at 9 or 8.30.

Rosie (02:09)

Ew.

Roula (02:10)

And when I wasn't there on time, nine, I might say five over nine, we kind of lived in this fear of not making it on time for work. My generation, I'm not sure about millennial. My generation lived terrified from not being on time. And when I was a team leader,

Rosie (02:23)

you

Mmm.

Roula (02:38)

My boss made me have hard conversations with my team members who couldn't be at nine. And I'm so ashamed.

Rosie (02:43)

Mmm.

Right, so you've been in a managerial

position. How did you feel having those conversations?

Roula (02:54)

So ashamed. So ashamed.

Rosie (02:55)

⁓ ashamed.

That is not the word I was expecting.

Roula (03:00)

That I have to tell a grown-up person doing their job right, who have kids and responsibility, that tomorrow you have to be here at 9. It's not acceptable that you're here at quarter past 9. So bad, my goodness.

Rosie (03:16)

Why do those

rules exist?

Roula (03:20)

Control.

Rosie (03:21)

Control. Ugh. It is big-

Roula (03:26)

I don't know why

this rule exists. I think control.

Rosie (03:30)

Yeah, and it's a little bit of, well, it's always been done that way. Why change it? Why change it? Well, I can get my work done.

Roula (03:35)

Yes.

Rosie (03:42)

In whatever hours, it doesn't matter. Why do I have to be there at nine on the dot? I might have a less productive day if you're threatening for me to lose my job if I don't get there on time, because maybe I'm going to be stressed because I got to get my kid to school and I got to do a disappointment. got to care for my unwell mother. got to do this. But if I rocked up half an hour later, I'd have time to take a breath, have my coffee, come in, have a really productive day. How is that a bad thing?

Roula (03:53)

Yes.

I don't know what... This is a question that I asked myself all my life. How companies, managers, responsible dare, dare...

timing for people doing their job and delivering. The bad thing is that our work also does not finish when we go home. So whether we're there at 9 or 9.30, whether it's flexible hours or not, we are still working after hours.

Rosie (04:33)

Mmm.

True. Yeah.

Roula (04:51)

And

no one talks about that. Also, my generation, Generation X, we did not only have been reprimanded for not being on time at the job, we've not been appreciated for working overtime because companies say, but we don't pay for overtime. It's your choice to work overtime. And then, I mean, I don't have to say it.

We all have breakdown moments when we're so freaking overwhelmed and can't do the job because you're doing the job for so many people because they're also cutting down on costs. But the most painful part for me is the being there on time. In multiple jobs, as far as I can remember,

Rosie (05:22)

Yeah, yeah.

Roula (05:39)

I remember I worked at a trust office and we had to start at 8.30. My kids were small. So sometimes, you know, some things are not in my control. School door opens at quarter past eight. So on the days that I bring them to school, it could be that the mom is talking to me, asking me something. I have to talk to the teacher and I'm not there at 8.30. I worked close by. I could cycle to my work. It was still...

Rosie (05:44)

Hmm.

wow.

Roula (06:08)

like half an hour cycle, 25 minutes. And the boss or the office manager would be waiting because I'm not there at 8.30.

Rosie (06:09)

Mmm.

Ugh.

Roula (06:21)

And when I'm late like this, I used to say, ⁓ because I felt bad. the stupidness. I will skip my lunch break. Listen to me. How many of us act have acted this way? Skipping our lunch break. Yes.

Rosie (06:26)

Mm.

⁓

Yeah, we're made to feel guilty. Yeah, yeah.

And it becomes normalized to work through your lunch break, to stay back late, to take work home.

Roula (06:44)

Yes.

Rosie (06:47)

So I know the answer to this. Well, I think I do, but I want to clarify this for the listener. We're talking about these very strict times you're meant to rock up to work. Are you saying that it's okay not to rock up to appointments or meetings on time, or is that something different?

Roula (07:06)

No, I'm not saying that.

when we have, sorry, continue, continue.

Rosie (07:11)

I think it knows.

I think in those situations, it's important to be on time.

Roula (07:22)

But that's the mistake of thinking if we're not on time to start our work, then we're not on time to do the rest. Because if I have a meeting at 8.30, I will ask my husband. I'll do whatever I can to make sure I'm there at 8.30. But on the days that I'm managing my time, why do I have to be there at 8.30 if I will be there and do the job and I know my day will be on time with the rest of it?

Rosie (07:29)

Yes.

You will be there.

Hmm.

Roula (07:52)

No, no, no, no. There are no conversations about being late at the meeting or being... No. The only conversation at work back then is arriving on time. And all colleagues are looking at you. You know, the managers, when they talk, this person doesn't start on time. So it's like a cultural shaming within the company for those who don't get there on time.

Rosie (08:05)

Mm-hmm.

you

Mmm... Mmm...

Roula (08:21)

It's even sometimes was

taken in... I also hate this company's way of doing personal development or evaluating your performance. Oh, you've been five days out of 10 not on time at the office. Well, you won't get your bonus. Something like this.

Rosie (08:32)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it does frustrate me, but what about, I think there are jobs where it's actually important to be there on time. For example, as a school teacher, I needed to make sure I was there for when the school day started. That one kind of makes sense. However, there was a bit of an unspoken rule that you need to get to school early, like an hour, hour and a half early.

Roula (09:10)

so much so long

Rosie (09:11)

That's not paid time

and you're expected to stay back after school.

Roula (09:15)

That's not paint.

Rosie (09:16)

Otherwise

you're lazy.

Roula (09:19)

Yeah. No. It has to be clear when you sign your contract, if they want you to be there an hour before the classes would start, this should be included in your, then you're working 45 hours and not 40 hours. But the companies, they do whatever they do to make the hours less expensive and have their foot on your neck.

Rosie (09:20)

That is not okay.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's not right. I think what's, what's good is these days, I think there are a lot more companies who are flexible and start and finish times. So I've experienced that in a couple of jobs. You know, I'll have a conversation with my boss. I don't just rock up late and not say anything. It's like, hey, I've got this going on. I'm going to start at this time and I might.

Roula (09:51)

with time. It's not right.

Bless.

Rosie (10:17)

You know, work a bit later that day, or sometimes she'll say, Hey, just take the day off. You've been working really hard. Like won't come out of sick pay, whatever. So I think there's managers now who are understanding. Actually, if you look after your staff, you will get loyalty from them. They will work hard for you. If you don't treat them like people, then they're to leave in a heartbeat.

Roula (10:43)

But this manager, they exist. And I had one like this in my last job. And really, really my manager did not care what time I arrive at the office. The job is done. The meetings are done. Everything was good. So he didn't really care what time I get to the office. What's sad, Rosie, those kind of manager who are humane, who don't want this toxic environment, they either

Rosie (10:46)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Roula (11:12)

get fired themselves because their bosses are not accepting their way of working or we don't hear about them

Rosie (11:18)

Mm-hmm.

So Roula let's pivot a little bit because this is getting a little bit negative, dark, depressing. And I know there's people who are still in traditional nine to five jobs. So what is your advice, wise one, to these people?

Roula (11:28)

dark

Rosie (11:44)

How can they make better of the situation? Is there anything they can do?

Roula (11:45)

goodness.

That's so difficult because you know, I don't have an advice. People are scared to be fired or treated less good. It has to be a collective thing. It has to be a whole department standing together against these rigid rules. It should not be a one person. You know, it must be a community, a revolution. Where's the revolution? Where is it?

Rosie (12:02)

Yeah.

needs a revolution.

Roula (12:24)

For the person, the individual, I would advise to have an honest conversation with their boss about how it's outdated this feeling and prove to them that they're doing their job no matter what, because at the end of the day, that's it.

Rosie (12:38)

I

wonder, Roula, do you think these strict start and finish times are written into most contracts?

Roula (12:49)

No, I don't think so. The number of hours is written, but not the start and finish.

Rosie (12:51)

Yeah, neither do I.

Yes.

Roula (13:00)

I have not had a job where I did not do shitload of overtime. And this was never written.

Rosie (13:05)

Right.

Roula (13:09)

Yeah.

Rosie (13:09)

So

maybe it's time for a class action. They have no right to be controlling your life in that way. At least that's what I think. And yes, there's exceptions, okay? There, you know, there's meetings. It's important to be on time to those, to show up, you know, do your job, deliver on the work. But when it's, there's rules for the sake of rules? Come on. We're better than that.

Roula (13:39)

Yes, your time, your responsibility, there's no answer and and it's a culture change and maybe it changed, I don't know.

Rosie (13:41)

So what's the answer?

There's no answer.

Yes sir. What's...

You don't know. Hmm.

Roula (13:53)

⁓ you know what? For the ones in their current job, I cannot advise you. You have to find your way, hopefully. But for the one looking for a new job, this must be a critical question for you to accept the job or not.

Rosie (14:05)

Yes.

Yes. And that'll give you a sense on how progressive they are and how they treat their staff as well. Because remember when you were going to a job interview, you are also interviewing them. Don't forget that.

Roula (14:26)

Yeah, true.

shall we wrap this long episode up because the system is good when it has smart people unfortunately majority are fucked up people okay i'm gonna shut up because this episode is like

Rosie (14:33)

Yeah,

On that note, everybody,

gosh, on that note, yeah, let us know your thoughts, I suppose.

Roula (14:52)

Search for your smart

people.

Rosie (14:56)

smart people, progressive people, people who are willing to think differently and actually be open-minded. Listen to others. Be collaborative.

Roula (15:08)

Thank you, Rosie. Bye.

Rosie (15:10)

Thank you. Goodbye.