24: The Big Question – Do You Want to Have Kids?

[00:00:00] 

rosie: I thought we were like doing the episode already. That was me putting on Rosie and Roula Rosie. Oh, okay. So that was acting. Well, you know, exaggerating. Clearly it's convincing.

Welcome to the Rosie Show. Marba. Good day.

Roula: Okay. You know, I have three children and you have none. Zero.

Roula: I have a fur baby. Yeah, a fur baby. Do you know is that like this is the most um, conversation killer question. Oh, either to ask, do you have children? And no one continue with why you don't have children and the next question burning and no one talk about it is that, do you [00:01:00] want children?

Roula: Want children. Yeah. And the fourth one is that, can you have children? So all of these, all of these questions, I'm going to put them in one questions for you. 

rosie: Jesus. 

Roula: Do you want children? 

rosie: Well, do I give the short answer or the, I'll give the short answer and then we can, we can, yes. Short answer, no.

rosie: Can you 

Roula: tell me why? 

rosie: Yes, I suppose that would help. I have trouble enough, trouble enough looking after myself. I do not need. Some demanding human beings who rely on me. I love children. I like working with children. I like spending time with children. Do I want them? No. Life would change so much. Would I be living in a van if I were to have a baby?

rosie: Probably not. I can't be as spontaneous if I have kids, especially when they're younger. And so I just, [00:02:00] I don't think it suits me. And I'm, I'm okay with that. But, if you aren't, when, yeah, so if you asked me that question even five years ago, I would have said, yes, I want kids. 

Roula: Why? Back then, was it yes? 

rosie: I don't think I'd stop to question if I really did.

rosie: It was just kind of, yeah, I love kids and everybody has kids at this age. And, yeah, of course I want kids. I'm going to be devastated if I don't have kids. And, you know, as someone who's not straight, having children requires A lot of planning. It's not just going to happen accidentally, right? So it wasn't like I could make a decision and let's start trying straight away.

rosie: Like, whatever. Surprise. Oh, where was I going with that? 

Roula: What was the same Rola? That a while ago, five years ago, you would say yes. But you would say yes [00:03:00] because of social expectations. Yes, yes, 

rosie: yes. And what women should have. Exactly what it was. Yes. Not that I realized that. I'm someone who hates rules and think I can think for myself and I'm very clever and very independent.

rosie: That's what we like to think. But yeah, that's exactly why. Yeah, exactly. It's all in my head. 

Roula: The older you get, the more you're, you're realizing. You know why I'm asking this question? Because, um, when you, when I meet people and they don't have children, I like to know why not because I'm nosy, but because I, yes, I'm fascinated by the women, the couples deciding not to have children.

Roula: I feel they're so strong in their wants and defying societal expectations. Of course, people will tell them, yeah, [00:04:00] but children are paying your pension and children are the future. Cause you know, we have children for economical reasons too. Oh, 

rosie: for fuck's sake. Or people go to me. Oh, you'll change your mind.

rosie: You'll change your mind. Yeah. Yes. Did you want kids? Were they planned? 

Roula: They were planned. I never wanted kids until, until my ex and my family and everyone was expecting it after two years of marriage. Oh, your 

rosie: ex. I thought you said eggs. 

Roula: No, my ex. I was young. I was 29, I think. Yeah. And it felt at that moment we were in love and 

It's 

Roula: felt it will make our life complete when I find it's really remarkable actually is that sometimes when couples are in difficulties, they go for it.[00:05:00] 

Roula: They think the child will solve their problems, they'll bring them closer together. Absolutely not. Or maybe, I mean, I don't have the facts. Why I'm saying absolutely not is because having kids is so challenging. It puts every relation to the test. So if the relation is already not stable, the kid is will make them exhausted.

Roula: It won't bring them together. And where I'm going with this is I want to go back first to the conversation with people who don't have children. Okay. So you're at the dinner table and everybody's talking about their kids. Do you feel like no one is interested in having conversation with you about what you like 

rosie: in life 

Roula: because they're so busy with their kids stories?

rosie: Hmm. I'm lucky in that. My small circle of friends. 

Roula: Oh, you're not giving 

rosie: me what I want. Most of them. No, I'm not. Go ahead, answer, answer. So, fucking suck it up. My circle of friends, most of them don't have kids. [00:06:00] And most of them don't want kids. But the ones who do Because they're also gay? No, no. I'm the only gay one.

rosie: No, jeez. Although, does that even matter? No. No. Yeah, I don't, yeah, no, that's an interesting one. So no, but if I was in that situation, I would feel left out because that's all they talk about and how many poos they've done today and how many millimeters of breast milk they had or just the, whatever it is, what developmental milestone they're at, or they've got a little cough at the moment.

rosie: And it gets to a point and you go, for goodness sake. Come on. Have you been in this situation? Not in a big group, but with sort of one other person or two other people, yeah. And it's not that I think they shouldn't talk about it, but there's a certain point and it's like, well, why are we catching up? I'm not here to get a [00:07:00] blow by blow of what your kid has been up to the past three weeks.

Roula: You know, what you're saying is logical. Of course, with small babies, the moms are so consumed and so tired and worried. It's just too much. They feel like talking about it is like releasing. The mistake is that I find what I felt, I so needed not to talk about the babies. Right. Yes. 

Roula: Yeah. I feel awkward sitting in a group just talking about the babies while some others there don't have babies. As you said, they have furry babies at home. They have You imagine if 

rosie: I rocked up and I just start talking about Tilly for two hours straight.

rosie: Nobody wants to hear that. 

Roula: It's like an obligation. Because most of people are people pleasing and we don't want to say, stop talking about [00:08:00] Tilly. 

rosie: So do you think becoming a mum then takes away your freedom? Is that what you think? 

Roula: True. And this is very, um, people listening maybe will think that don't become a mom.

Roula: Yeah. Because you also hear this. If you don't want that, don't become a mom. No, I want that. And I also want to have the freedom to be myself. Becoming a mom, your freedom is gone. You're so tired, especially when they are small, you're tired, you have no energy the next day to do anything. And if you don't have someone to help you, you're Um, yeah, your word is just being a mom.

rosie: You must feel like a totally different person. Did you have like a, an identity crisis? Like who am I now? Oh, big time, big 

Roula: time. Big time. And do you know what we learn? Now we're talking about something else actually than my question. What we learn is that you should do it all by yourself. It's wrong to [00:09:00] ask for help.

Roula: Then you're not a good mom. This, this stupid, stupid way of doing it all by yourself is horrifying. And they don't tell you all the truth about how painful breastfeeding is, how the development of the kids is tough. Anyway, I want to go back to our, to our topic that, uh, what I like is that, As you said, at the dinner table, meeting people for coffee, having just conversation, it's okay to be interested in the other woman who chooses not to have children.

rosie: Yeah, don't treat us as less than. might be health issues. Okay. 

Roula: Yeah. And I wonder if women who are not, who really have the desire to have a baby and can't have one, are they open to share this? What do you think? 

rosie: I think [00:10:00] that's really hard. It's so personal. And I think those journeys can be so painful. I know one person who's been through it and they had a child and it was great.

rosie: And another person who's, They haven't been successful and they spent all this money and it's hard to see. So do they want to talk about it? Probably yes and no, I think because they must be wanting to have someone understand what they're going through. But do they want to share it with a mom who's gushing over their baby?

rosie: Probably not. Hmm. That's a good 

Roula: one. So it's really sensible. Ask him this question. It could be also parents who lost their babies. I'm not making it dramatic, but this is a reality. No, but it's true. 

rosie: You never know. Do you think, do you think there are reasons not to ask people though?

rosie: Like, why don't you want kids? [00:11:00] Maybe that's not the 

Roula: question to ask. 

rosie: Right. 

Roula: I mean, I know you. I could ask you this. We haven't talked about it. Not just tell 

rosie: you to piss off. 

Roula: Uh huh. Uh 

rosie: huh. Well, no, I wouldn't. 

Roula: Other, I think we should make space for people with no children. Uh, to talk about why and how they see their future.

Roula: That's 

rosie: exactly it. Create space. 

Roula: And also, what are their interests? Having a child is not everything. It's not the be all end all, is it? If I'm talking about my baby, I would love to hear about your dog, even though they think, Oh, but that's a dog. It's not a baby. And, uh, it's, if it's important to you, it's important.

rosie: Right. Right. We just respect what's important to everybody and there's no expectation. You should have a kid or one day you'll change your mind. The hormones will kick in or whatever the heck it is. Or you're getting old now. Yes, [00:12:00] clock is ticking. Yeah, that used to stress me out. And now I'm like, Oh, well, good.

rosie: Then people don't have to be like, Oh, time's running out. And you just go, nah, it's run out, mate. 

Roula: If there, if we have systems that supports mom, new moms, and if even, even later, if we have good systems, I think more women would be encouraged to have children. 

rosie: Right. I do find it terrifying. It's a hard 

Roula: choice for women.

rosie: It's terrifying. Pushing a child out of my vagina or having myself cut open if I'm having a c section, it sounds awful. Shitting yourself and whatever else people look and like, no thank you. That's terrifying. And then you, you're dealing with a child who's screaming all night. That definitely scares me.

rosie: That is terrifying. And yet, I feel like that's not spoken about much. It's just all the rainbows. 

Roula: Having children's wonderful.

Roula: I'm so glad to hear your voice on this. I'm so glad to hear your opinion this wide, [00:13:00] clear, because it's okay. I respect you for that. Mmm. Mmm. Thanks for sharing how you feel. 

Roula: You are welcome.

Roula: I'm glad you asked. We haven't had this conversation, but why the hell not? We're friends. We've known each other long enough. Why did it take a podcast episode? But everybody let us know. What are your thoughts? Do you want kids? Do you not want them? Should we ask people why or give them space to talk about their experiences?

Roula: Yes. I have a friend. She's an expert in the field. I'm going to ask her. Yes. And we'll get the answer on the next episode, hopefully. 

rosie: Well, you better, you better note that down because both of us have terrible memories. You ask your expert friend and we're going to, we're going to cover that. 

Yes. I will. All right.

I think 

rosie: we

rosie: [00:14:00] If you got a kick out of our conversation today, can you pretty please hit the follow button and share it with another opinionated person? This is the easiest way for you to support the show. It also gives Rula and I the motivation to keep going. I have to 

Roula: stop you there. Stop telling people what to do.

Roula: If they like to follow the show and share it, it's totally up to them. Guys, please, can you help us follow and share the show? Thank you so much. See you next 

time.